Stu,
I love having this dialogue with you, because I feel we both enjoy this topic greatly and yet so divided on some of our views. However, you're confusing my position with your commentary, in trying to label me with the non-believers. Please, stop. If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that my view is all about the dualistic nature of man. I'm just trying to tell you how it's implemented in nature. Our spiritual nature (soul as you describe it) is not a new undiscovered force of nature. You and I are information with the ability to process other information. Why is it so hard for people to get this?
I have oversimplified my explanation in what follows intentionally to convey my basic idea which seems hard to grasp for some. You, are information.; an ultrasophisticated program executing on your body. Your body is just a machine consisting of the same atoms as mine subject to the same physical laws. Yet we are different, unique because of that information, while our componentry is virtually the same. Think of yourself as the code on ultimate Turing machine that this world with it's physical laws and God (supplying information for your machine) could produce. Yes, each of our machines look a little different, they all function a little differently and all wear out at different rates but still all human bodies. Your information (soul) runs your body until it's time is up. When this world is over, God takes your informations (all recorded perfectly in His non-decaying environment with different physical laws (Heaven)) and puts your information in a different machine (your heavenly body, a new machine subject to new physical laws) to live with Him forever.
Please tell me how my views violate the Bible specifically; the passages you quoted certainly are in tune with my view. Yet, your view is inconsistent with what we have learned from science. If I am mistaken in my assessment on your view, please provide some details as to exactly what your view is about this new force and how it operates and the evidence for it.
Consistent with the scientific view of this world, information is radically different than forces resulting from the physical laws. Information certainly doesn't violate any of the physical laws, and is independent from those physical laws. Information from God defined the dimensions, the relationships between them and that determines the physical laws that make up this world and force all machines built from the matter in this universe to operate in a specific way. Based on the information provided into this dimensional manifold as initial conditions or at later times, these laws can evolve additional information that can make new beings like you and me as well as all of the other entities within this world.
It certainly might be a little hard to swallow all this the first time you read it. Just think about it. It is very much like a very detailed computer simulation. It's a great solution physically and spiritually for the spirit- body dualism. Anyway, it works for me, so I'm sticking with it unless you come up with a better argument than presented so far. Sorry.
(A short diversion) You never indicated what aspect of my claim (that the four forces are sufficient for us) that Roger Penrose would disagree with. I will have to guess from his last book that I read of his 'The Road to Reality' where he was somewhat sympathetic to the concept of God driving a low entropy condition to start the universe but focused on the mathematical concept of Twistors to resolve the deep mathematical conflicts between gravitation and quantum theories. So, what if agnostic Roger Penrose wants to twiddle with the mathematical equations some more in quantum mechanics, gravity or any others. They may never quite get it perfect. They'll be arguing over the form of the laws as long as the world exists. Only God knows the final equation set.
We absolutely know from the four existing measurable forces in nature that this world and a lot of fine functioning animals can be made from them alone with our present understanding of those laws. We don't need a new force in physics (the spiritual force) to breath life into them or make a man from dirt. It seems you might be grasping for support in asserting these fine Bible passages support your assumption that such as a new spiritual force is needed for man. If I missed something in these passages that destroys my argument, please clearly point it out. Many mammals already have thinking and reasoning abilities albeit at diminished levels of performance with the known set. What they don't have is abstract reasoning skills and imagination. This is unique in man but you'd be wildly speculating with that imagination of yours if you dreamed up a new force in nature to get it. A much simpler solution would result from a structural changes to a primate brain with more cellular capacity and interconnects in specific areas that are tied to higher level brain function. These changes also mirror the modifications observed between man and ape brain structure. No new measurable forces or cell types exist in humans when the brain is studied in detail by physicians or scientists to my knowledge. The same components in apes exist in man; only size and top level architectures are modified. Have you heard of something new or different than this being discovered that exists in only humans?
I am likely oversimplifying here, but I believe you're mistaking forces for information. You have made a faulty assumption about what the Bible states regarding forces. The Bible doesn't even use 'force' as a word in your selected passages. I claim that you are dualistic also: body (forces and energy) and spirit (information organized within the body with the ability to process external information). You claim a new force is necessary, and I think the known laws and information are quite sufficient to produce the dualistic nature of man. Your position doesn't seem to take into account information processing superimposed on a quantum mechanical atomic system to account for abstract thought and imagination as a possible solution for the spiritual nature of man. Mine does. Roger Penrose speculated in his book the 'Emporor's New Mind' on how human thought might be quantum mechanically based; no new physical forces proposed though, just an undiscovered aspect of the existing physical laws.
Monistic physicalism sounds like a defamatory word used to put down those that disagree with a dogmatic religious position. This seems as an attempt to stereotype me in with another group of opponents you have dismissed long ago as having an inferior position based on your logic. I take some offense at your claim that I have asserted a position of monistic physicalism without basis. I have not mentioned or asserted this atheist position, yet you state that I did. It seems you have stated this to denigrate me. Bad form!
My position would be closer to a new term called 'Divine guided dualistic information processing by material systems if it existed (information & material under God's direction) in the world's vernacular. I tried to clearly define my position in my writing and tried to get my debating opponents to define theirs as well on how God actually made this wonderful place. I have been putting evidence in writing for months substantiating my claims. Most of it is ignored or claimed as biased without justification or any evidence to the contrary. Yet I ask politely for evidence and continue to get none from all other debaters in the scientific areas. Seems like I can only get Bible verses which are mostly presumptuous on their true meaning. I will ask you politely this time as well. If you have some evidence that this additional new force exists in the universe please provide it and also please clearly define for me what this new force in nature is. I'm looking for something testable, measurable, and documented in a credible journal because the Bible doesn't define this dualism further than stating it's existance and I don't believe any new forces of nature are necessary or exist in this reality. You claim that a new force exists in nature, show me, you're a physicist by training! Provide some evidence for it other than your assumptions of what the Bible is trying to state! If there is a new force in nature that operates 24/7 there should be some evidence, right, since we are all dreaming, imagining, and talking about abstract concepts all hours of the day? There should be plenty of this new force to discover. Sorry to be such a pragmatist!
Also, since you didn't disagree with anything else I stated in my previous post, I am under the assumption that you agree with the rest of my statements.
I am wildly speculating in my mind, what you imagine this spiritual force to be and how you think it works. Physicist to physicist please indulge me on some of the details of how this force operates with other forces of nature to provide mind body dualism. There is one additional discussion thread that we should also pursue while in this area: ghosts, demons, and resurrection. Do these also have some relation to this new force and if so how?
Lee.
