Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

Japan scores against Cameroon - 2940 tweets per second
Brazil scores first goal against North Korea - 2928 tps
Mexico ties South Africa - 2704 tps

Los Angeles LAKERS beat Boston CELTICS - 3085 tps!

Sorry Lucien.

Lucien ...

I know we're getting a little off-topic here ...
but Hey! ... what the heck?
You (sort of) answered your own question!
ALL of greatest players from around the World
participate in the NBA! (i.e. "Pau Gasol")
So ... I think it's pretty safe to say that
there is NO other Basketball team anywhere in
the World that could beat the Lakers in a "best-of-7" !!!
I believe the same is true with Baseball?
And ... I would put up the NFL's worst Team against
ANY team that the rest of the World could assemble!
This has nothing to do with American superiority!
It's ALL about the fact that the Talent is collected
where the most Money is offered to play a game!
The "World Cup" was starting to gain (a little)
popularity here in the USA ... up until we were
just (so obviously) reminded that this Tournament
is the Sports equivalent of the United Nations!
We are allowed to participate ... but don't expect
to be treated fairly ... because "WE HATE YOU" !!!
Team USA was robbed of a victory ... with NO EXPLANATION !!!
Fortunately ... few Americans actually care ...
because even fewer (myself included) are watching!
But ... all National flexing aside ... I'd put my
sawbuck on Argentina ... up against your Germans?
By the way ... I am impressed with your personal Laker links!


Bret* 2010

How can you talk about the Lakers being World champs if only US teams can participate.?
It is like baseball, calling it the world-series. Completely detached from reality youz are...

Did you know that Pau Gasol used to run laps around the company i worked for in Cornella in Spain?
Did you know that somebody who got drafted before Kobe Bryant is my friend?

Well, congratulations are in place I guess: congrats!

The LAKERS are the WORLD CHAMPS

Lucien ...

I'm not one to usually disagree with you!
But ... you're WAY off base here!
Being the only non-American posting on the Blog
you don't realize that Americans (generally) do
NOT watch (or care very much about) Soccer !!!
So ... your prediction about the Germans is way
off the mark!
The World Champions were already crowned tonight!

*** The Los Angeles LAKERS !!! ***




Bret* 2010

Prediction:
We will get a long post with a lot of technical jargon.

But then again, I today predicted the Germans will be world champions, but I may be wrong here also...

Lee - Quantum process control is all that is necessary for God to build His new creation from existing species ...

I'll be delighted to engage in your dialog, but first please answer me this --- How did God use "Quantum Process control" to build Adam's soul?

Stu

Hi Stu,

The key point that is being missed here is the violation of fixed physical laws. Your version violates them, by miraculous creation from mud or from pure injection of energy. Modifying the sequence of genetic code at the atomic level doesn't. Substitutions occur often In gene replication due to quatum effects using the natural processes. This could be God guided instead of random chance driven as the secular community propagandizes. Quantum process control is all that is necessary for God to build His new creation from existing species using RNA, DNA, and proteins inside of cells. There is no violation of physical laws by this method. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Why perform miracles that violate the physical laws billions of times over earth's history for all of the new kinds of species when a perfectly efficient God designed natural process will do? Do you think God would make creation of species more difficult for Himself than necessary? This seems ridiculous to me. I believe our disagreement stems from your refusal to accept that God can control quantum uncertainty as I have claimed, because this goes against the secular community claims on random chance controlling nature and your beliefs about free-will being founded on random chance. Am I right?

Lee

Lee - "God directing the genetic code changes at an atomic level and as a result the new species is born from a prior species."

Lee - I don't know how God it, but if what you say is true then God "manufactured" (Hb. "asa") the ant out of pre-existing materials. But that's a creation miracle, not evolution. God wasn't constrained to the "fixed laws of evolution" since random mutation and natural selection are not proven mechanisms of nature at the macro level. You only assume they are.

Stu

Addendum -- God doesn't need a "prior species" to asa. That doesn't make it any less a miracle than creating out of "mud" as the Bible puts it.

Hi Stu, thanks for the reply, but I still didn't get the details I had hoped for and expect in this dialogue, since I am trying to lay out the details for you from my perspective. Hope you will provide the same. Vague references will not resolve these issues, I would like specific answers to all my questions and I will try to do the same for your questions. 

[Stu] If I understand this correctly, God intervenes "scientifically" by supplying new information. In the ex-nihilo case, he must also supply energy and matter that had not previously existed. I understand this is the part that bothers you. But you have the same problem with "something from nothing" only you place the timing of it at the "instant of creation" rather than in the "process of creation" (the 6 days). I still don't see how your view avoids the issue.

Lee- very simply, if you inject enough organized energy (photons) into this universe to make an animal, for arguments sake let's say the first ant, according to the existing laws of physics, parity violations will occur unless an equal amount of anti-matter in the form of an anti-ant superimposed on the regular ant. Very shortly thereafter a fairly large explosion would occur killing both ants unless the fixed laws of physics were violated. There would be left only one part in a billion of the ant remaining in the form of a fast moving atoms accelerated by the explosion. 

Lee- this is not a problem for the initial universe that God created, since 1 part in a billion of matter remainging is what was needed to constitute the universe we have today. This very hot matter as subatomic particles had to cool for several hundred thousand years and undergo several transformations according to those same laws of physics before the first atoms could become stable in a much cooler universe. There is huge difference in conditions over a great time period that would permit a complex critter to be formed by the existing laws.   A book that nicely describes this for physicists and laymen as well is The First Three Minutes by Steven Weinberg.    

[Stu] You keep insisting that God violates the laws of physics by this kind of intervention. Rather "special creation" is God introducing new information into the universe which direct (not violate) the laws of nature so that they will accomplish what He wants them to. That is the biblical view. That's the "God guided naturalistic mechanism" you're looking for. It's not macroevolution.

Lee- Although closer to rational explanation, this explanation was insufficient for me.   Maybe you can explain how macro-evolution would look different to someone watching between the Ross process described and the Darwinian model. Would the new species morph into existance from other materials or be born into the world from different looking and functioning parents as a result of different genetic code insertion?  If I understood your response correctly, it seems like both processes would look the same in the biological record and to someone watching the birth of the new animal since it was a 'God guided naturalistic process'. If this is the case, it is exactly what I have been trying to explain for several months. God directing the genetic code changes at an atomic level and as a result the new species is born from a prior species. This is evolutionary Creationism per Hugh Ross.

I have that book of Hugh's, and will reread those sections to see if I can get more out of it than before on how 'bara' and 'asa' are actualized. It seemed fairly nebulous the first pass, maybe I missed the details somehow.   

Lee

Hi Stu


I am a product support engineer for a company that manufactures gas detectors.


L

Lee


The Bible is God's revelation to man.
So it is likely He would relate to us within the dimensions we can understand.
That I believe in normal time in Heaven is based on Rev. 22:3. Months are things that i am familiar with...

And angels and demons certainly move around in our dimensions (too). They have to, because people have seen them. And even things that cannot be seen don't necessarily have to be in different dimensions!


Lucien

Lucien, 

Sorry, my reply to your last post on 'dimensions' took so long, I've been very busy with other personal matters this past week and unable to get back as soon as I has hoped while making progress when I could.    

My thoughts on this topic have nothing to do with string theory. A straight reading of the Bible will do fine. A basic understanding of physics and it's fundamental relation to mathematical formulas proven to hold among space, time, energy, momentum and particle physics should suffice for most people on this topic.     Yes there are more than a single time dimension. Peter briefly addresses this in  2 Peter 3:8 whichever way you read the text, God is causal and unbound by our worldly time dimensions and rate of time growth.   We are in a universe with an unknown number of other dimensions but likely more than five based on electrodynamics and perhaps ten or eleven as string or brane theory predict. All of these include a unidirectional dimension that involves time. Unidirectional time provides causation in this world and results in ever increasing entropy due to space time expansion. God is in another set of dimensions that includes at least one other dimension of time that He controls to travel anywhen throughout the actualized history of eternity. There is no entropy in His set of dimensions; things there don't wear out.  In the new creation or while we are in Heaven, entropy will not increase or wear things out.  This implies different physical laws in each set of dimensions, because our set of laws in our dimensions permit wear or growth in entropy.  

Time independence must be true, how do you explain foreknowledge, prophesy, and GE 1 (before our time existed, God caused this entire universe including it's time dimension to come into existance at T=0). 
Here are some other verses to reconcile with your view of one set of dimensions:

Colossians 1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him - all things, whether visible or invisible, ....

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God - the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come - the All-Powerful!

Isaiah 34:4 All the stars in the sky will fade away, the sky will roll up like a scroll; all its stars will wither, like a leaf withers and falls from a vine or a fig withers and falls from a tree.

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more.

These passages show that God was present before our universe or anything in it existed and God will continue to exist after our universe rolls up like a scroll and ceases to exist. That God is outside of our universe, but able to make it and also able to interact with it.   These verses show that God is capable of creating new sets of dimensions with a completely different set of physical laws than the ones used by Heavenly beings.  The verses indicate that at least Heaven and our universe have an independent existence with different physical laws.  

The physical laws result from the mathematical relationships among the different dimensions. For different laws of physics, new relationships are necessary. Each change in mathematical relationships will result in new physical laws. Each change in mathematical laws will result in a new environment. For three of the four environments listed in the Bible, different physical environments and laws are described in the Bible that our existing physical laws won't support.  If you disagree with this view, what do you think makes these physical laws different in the different places? 

How do you rationalize only one set of dimensions for all of these different environments while some exist in parallel; ones that contain spirits, God, material bodies, and totally different physics of operation in each?  If you believe in one set of dimensions for all of these places and that the physical laws are not the result of mathematical relationship difference between the dimensions in each that God has established, then what do you believe causes the differences in the physical laws between each place and their isolation from one another?  

Lee.

I think that Lucien makes an astute clarification!
Satan is THE enemy here! ALL of these attacks on Christianity
(Evolution, Atheism, Moral Apathy, Cults, World Religions, ... etc.)
are created by a single source ... SATAN !!!
If we are to unite together collectively with everyone who is against
Naturalistic Evolution? ... Then we are faced with accepting the followers
of Islam ... as they are quite adamantly opposed to Evolution as well!
When we focus on Satan as our enemy ... this perceived alliance is quickly
dissolved ... as Christians & Muslims deeply believe each other to be
misguided followers of Satan ... and not the "One True God" !!!
The day that Science finally admits that Darwinian Macro Evolution is WRONG ...
it will quickly be replaced by a new lie from Satan's arsenal ...
and the WAR against Satan will continue until Christ's return!


Bret* 2010

"the common enemy -- naturalistic evolution. "

This would be classed as the fallacy of reification:
Attributing a personal characteristics to an abstract concept.

The enemy is the accuser: Satan.
And We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 Cor. 10:5)

The Devil, the father of lies, denies God's Word and tries to twist it. Mainly he does this nowadays by using evolution and everything that goes with it, including old age, which comes from fields outwith the Bible.
(yes, I had to throw that last statement in ;-) )

Dear Bret, Lucien and Lee --

I think God is pleased that we are all at a place where we can dialog with these guiding principles in mind.
"How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity"
"they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true"
"Test everything. Hold on to the good."
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
"contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

Sure -- let's continue to challenge one another, but more importantly let's learn from one another so we can band together as brothers against the common enemy -- naturalistic evolution.

My challenge for the day is to Lee -- When did Adam die in your model?

Genesis 2, Rom 5, and 1 Cor 15 form one of the foundational pillars of Christian theology -- the Fall. If Adam was just a product of evolutionary development then his death was not a result of sin but of natural causes. This is clearly at odds with the Bible.

On the other hand, if Adam evolved but wasn't a "man" until God supernaturaly endowed a "hominid" with His Imago Dei,then you have God supernatually "violating His fixed physical laws" (your terminology).

Please help me understand.

Added --
Bret -- Thank you for your comments about Hugh Ross. I am equally concerned about any tampering with God's Word. I don't necessarily buy all of Ross' conclusions and am very interested in knowing (being sharpened) where he goes astray.

Lucien - our daughter Robin just returned from two weeks on the Channel Islands and said the weather there was beautiful!
You are a traveler. May I ask you what business takes you to all those interesting places?

In Italy there is an organisation (not Christian) who is sponsoring a (text)book pointing out the flaws of evolution.
They even go to say that some dinosaur bones are thousands of years old (presumably those with fresh tissue and red blood cells in them, which they are now finding more and more since they started cutting open bones).

Stu ...

I own and have read several of Hugh's books!
(You even gave me one! ... Remember?)
I've watched the entire Ankerberg debate ... as well as
several other debates & presentation videos by Dr. Ross!
I have a lot of respect for Hugh as an Evangelist ... as
well as ... an Astronomer!
He is a very well prepared and effective speaker!
My only fault with him ... is when he starts to tamper with
God's Word ... by substituting 3rd & 4th definitions of
Hebrew & Greek words in "key" verses to achieve some kind
of cohesion with his scientific convictions!
I (personally) see this as a dangerous manipulation of
God's Word ... motivated by a perceived need to compromise
God's Facts with the Scientific Theories of the day!
A perfect example of the Church compromising God's Word
with the popular beliefs of the non-believers around them
(in an attempt to lure them in)... is the Roman Catholic Church!
I do believe that Dr. Ross is a brilliant & sincere man!
I also (personally) believe he's dangerously wrong about
what God's Word actually says!


Bret* 2010

Hi Stu,

ta for your feedback, nice and succinct.
In this session Ross actually stated that the new creation is (going to be) the BEST creation. I would agree, although it is up for discussion. The new creation does not give the citizens choice about being followers of God, they already ARE. The first creation HAD to HAVE a choice, inherently related to God's character and wanting a relationship with humans able of making a choice, not robots.
I just found it remarkable (read: significant) that Ross LEFT OUT the word "very" as he repeated the question from the audience (who had said "VERY good", that's all.

I have not read any books by Ross, but the thought that he was referring to Biblical sources DID cross my mind, but he did not say so. Thanks for clarifying. I still disagree though, lol.

You are right in that the sun is a star. That was of course a silly oversight of me.
However: Rev. 21:23 does NOT explicitly state there will be no sun. Read it again (and again in numerous translations as I just did) and you will see that this is YOUR interpretation, but not actually a fact. I believe you committed the fallacy of presumption (not intentionally though).
And even if you are right there will not be a sun, to then jump to the conclusion there will be NO other stars is a sweeping generalisation.

I will not argue with you on Romans 5 and 1 Cor.15.
But the fact that these verses may only relate to human death, does not per se mean that death was restricted to humans. I think this may be the fallacy of hasty generalisation.
In a counter-argument, I would quote Romans 8:20-22, and especially verse 20, where it mentions those creatures that were subjected by him who had subjected it (i.e. had dominion, i.e. Adam).

Satan was the first to commit sin, we all agree he did before Adam did. But he was not the one given dominion over the creation, and thus only he (and a third of the angels following him) were affected.


Greetz from bonny Scotland (when will summer be here???)
Lucien

As you know my goal in this dialog is to have Christians listen to one another and join together against a common enemy. We don't have to agree on our interpretation of Scripture. But we do have to agree that the Bible is God's inerrant Word and that it rules science not the other way around.

I have read Ross' material and respect him as a brother and scientist, so I will attempt to clarify the issues you bring up.

"Very good" -- Ross does not believe that God created a world without sin and decay from the beginning. If God did then He would have said perfect instead of very good. Decay (2nd law) was in operation (stars were burning, living things were metabolizing). Sin was around -- Satan had fallen -- rebellion by mankind was imminent. The trees were in the middle of the Garden (center stage was set). The next creation however will be perfect -- without sin and decay -- so that is not a re-creation of the first one, but rather a new creation -- and a new set of physical laws.

Ross' "20 creation accounts" are all Scripture (mostly Job, Psalms, et. al.)-- not secular sources. These are all well documented in his writings.

He is an old earther believing yom refers to long periods of time. But he accepts that other Christians interpret yom to mean 24 hours.

Rev 21:23 says that there will be no sun - that's a star. The glory of God illumines the universe not electromagnetism.

Rom 5 and 1 Cor 15 state explicitly that death came to humans because of Adam's sin. It does not include animals and plants.

Satan was the first sinner.

All of us agree that God is the Creator, perfect in all respects, and deserves all our honor and glory.

Thanks Lucien for the opportunity to dialog!

Hi Stu

just noticed how Hugh left out the word "very" when referring to God's statement that everything was ... good.
Will continue to listen, but i am critical!

He also states that both 24 hour days as well as long ages are literal readings of Genesis 1, but only one [the latter] agrees with 20 other creation accounts.
In other words: Hugh is riming his Bible reading with external sources? Or am I missing something?
And how can two contradicting statements both be true? Logical fallacy there perhaps?
24 hour is not equal to long periods of time!

He says in Rev. 21 it says there will be no stars and no sun. It doesn't explicitly state that. Stars are not even mentioned?

Hugh also says that the laws of physics will change dramatically! Does Lee approve of this?

He goes on that animals are excluded from death, because sin only affected the humans, according to Paul (talk . Then he goes on to say that Satan was the first sinner (talk 10). Sooooo, make up your mind Hugh?


So yeah Stu.
You were right, I don't agree with all Ross has to say, but that was not a secret.
I am not writing any of the above because I am waiting for another 5 page long rebuttal from Lee either.
What I like to do is listen to inconsistencies, or contradictions. I try to point these out, not to offend people, but to ensure that we are still dealing with human beings and not perfect, but the Bible cannot contradict itself, because it was written by someone who IS perfect.
So we should honour HIM more than human beings...



L

Lee -- In response to your questions, and knowing that you respect Hugh Ross, I was able to find his answers to your scientific questions in his work Who Was Adam? You can find it on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQiUgvN65-8&NR=1 Videos 8-11 (the Q&A session). Videos 1-7 was also fascinating as it is an update on genetic and anthropological research (as of 2007).

Bret and Lucien -- I highly recommend 8-11 Q&A to you as well since Ross gives his biblical as well as scientific exposition on the points central to our debate. I'm not asking you to accept it, I am just asking that you listen to his views directly without filter.

Lee - Hugh clearly explains your "popping into existence" and "ex nihilo" problems directly from the biblical text and the laws of physics. The Hebrew words for "popping" are bara and asa. "Asa" means creating something brand new (that did not previously exist) by "manufacturing" it out out of existing resources (your "mud"). The creation of the soul, however, is "bara" which also means created brand new, but it is creation out of nothing that pre-existed.

God works through the natural law by intervening super-naturally using 3 types of miracles --
(1) sustaining miracles as in Col 1 -- Christ holding all things together.
(2) creation miracles out of "mud" -- asa
(3) creation miracles ex nihilo -- bara

If I understand this correctly, God intervenes "scientifically" by supplying new information. In the ex-nihilo case, he must also supply energy and matter that had not previously existed. I understand this is the part that bothers you. But you have the same problem with "something from nothing" only you place the timing of it at the "instant of creation" rather than in the "process of creation" (the 6 days). I still don't see how your view avoids the issue.

You keep insisting that God violates the laws of physics by this kind of intervention. Rather "special creation" is God introducing new information into the universe which direct (not violate) the laws of nature so that they will accomplish what He wants them to. That is the biblical view. That's the "God guided naturalistic mechanism" you're looking for. It's not macroevolution.

Hi Lee

I think the world, hell, and the new creation are all in the same dimension, and for that matter, heaven may as well be.
The new creation because it is to replace the existing one.
Hell because it seems to be in the centre of this planet, although there may be a different location for the lake of fire.

One problem I have with your last post:

"I believe that God will always be in one of them that includes a time dimension"

and

"As I have already stated, all of this information is already known by God as He operates in other dimensions outside of our dimensions including space and time"

So, contradiction or multiple time dimensions?
Are you sure that all your meddling with string theory has not muddled your view and make all things overly complicated?
What happened to the simplicity of Scriptures and all those people that did not have string theory?

Lucien

Bret, hopefully I'm not insane for trying to have a discussion on positron generation with you. I don't think you are incapable of understanding what I have been blogging so I plan to continue. Thanks for being more Christian like in your last responses but I will still hope for better than a choice between my being an insane, mad- scientist and you being a stupid idiot savant. Let's not label or judge each other but just try to understand what the other is saying. I am trying very hard to understand your perspective on these issues, unfortunately I just don't see it at times. I will keep trying though. 

Lucien, I always wanted to use this phrase in my Title from Buzz Lightyear  and thanks for making it happen. 

Infomation space is a big place, I believe it to be infinite as eternity is realized.   Infinity is a numerical destination for us humans and spiritual beings where we never quite get to. Pick any number with as many numbers as you want and you still won't be there. Write down the infinity symbol and add or multiply it by any number and you still get infinity. This is the mathematical concept any way. Many people claim God is infinite. I think this might be where you are coming from.  I don't think that he is, I believe He is an eternal being though with well defined characteristics such as omniscience, omnipotence and all the other good traits we attribute to him except for being infinite. You see, I don't think all information can ever exist, that would occur when infinity is reached and infinity cannot be reached conceptually from a mathematical perspective. Eternity would have to end for infinity to be reached and all information to exist. So as long as time exists in any set of dimensions, new information will continue to be generated.  I believe that God will always be in one of them that includes a time dimension due to my faith and statements in the Bible: 'alpha & omega', etc. I also believe this because it is quite clear from this universe that God can generate new dimensions to exacting specifications.    

Another negative aspect of actually reaching infinity is that eternal  beings would not be able to be creative generating new information if all information already exists. I think God has his hand on the information throttle and generates only that information He wishes to exist. You and I are part of that of that information. This universe is another piece of it but not all of it since it will come to an end. God is free to create information whenever and in any dimension He desires. The rest of us are along for the ride. Our free will gives us some license to create information as part of this universe but God controls it's scope and effects on His Creation.  As I have already stated, all of this information is already known by God as He operates in other dimensions outside of our dimensions including space and time. I believe Heaven and God are in another set of dimensions.  There are at least four sets of dimensions described in the Bible: the world, Heaven, Hell, and the new Creation.   

I hope this helps you understand my position better on infinity, God, and eternity.  I am not trying to frustrate you or Bret as often suspected. I'm just trying to explain my worldview which I'm sure seems insane at times from your position. All I can say, is that God wants me doing this for some reason, and we'll all find out why later. Maybe God wants you to be able to converse meaningfully with other scientists. Hopefully it's not as painful to you as what Paul had to endure!      

From Insanity (as a Former Atheist) and Beyond

Lee

Hey,
here are some facts/views/questions for you all to consider.

[fact]
The original Scriptures did not have the chapter and verse divisions.
In fact, it did not have punctuation or spaces! [/fact]
[statement] So what we have today, in some case seems a bit arbitrary. [/statement]

[personal view] I would start chapter 2 of Genesis in the middle of Gen. 2:4.[/personal view]
[statement] To build a case on where the chapters and verses start is pretty dumb. [/statement]

[fact]
I have noticed that a lot of vehicles use those same round things, often consisting of a metal frame and a rubber wrap around sometimes filled with air. I think they are called wheels. [/fact]
[statement] The makers should be forbidden to use the same concept and same materials. [/statement]
[personal view] God is a good Designers, and some parts He made were suitable for various creatures, like a mosaic. Why should He be forced to use completely different sequences every time, if the one He just devised works perfectly fine for its purpose? [/personal view]

[fictional story]
Headline: 10,000 killed in massive earthquake in town X
Text: the day started with everybody going about their business as usual....(etc)

Hang on, how is that possible? How can everybody be doing their normal routine if before it already said that 10,000 were killed?
(think about it!) [/fictional story]

[quote]
"Water was constantly falling from day 1"
[question Lucien]
What verse tells us this?