Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

Here is an email chain that occurred "off-forum" among members which I thought should be posted. It concerns a new field of science -- Epigenetics -- which is highly relevant to our discussion about evolution ..

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David Cristofaro <DavidC@actionable.com> wrote:

Hi Stu and Lee,
I wasn’t sure if I had sent this your way or not, but I thought this was extremely interesting. This indicates that changes in genes can occur in much shorter timeframes than was once speculated. Interested in your thoughts on this.
Epigenetics, DNA: How You Can Change Your Genes, Destiny - TIME

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968,00.html?artId=1951968?contType=article?chn=sciHealth

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Lee Hummel wrote:

Hi Dave!
Great to hear from you. Yes, I do believe in fast mutation rates. Within the past ten years junk DNA has transitioned to genetic control DNA. Now that is fast. Just joking of course! It has always been thus, but scientists just learned recently about the marvelous gene expression mechanisms built into the packaging of our chromosomes and the 'junk DNA'. There is a lot more to come in this area as the exploration continues. The design in this process and chemistry is truly amazing. It just might be sufficient to permit natural processes to perform the brunt of the creation without requiring the Father to miraculously intercede in each new species. Not sure about the need for intervention yet. Guys like Behe and Meyer left a lot out of their mutation rate estimates and actually made some mistakes in their books. Things like this give Darwininists more ammunition. To me, it is just another indication that the natural processes are sufficient for God to build the world the way he wants it. What unfathomable intelligence our Father has. The chemistry was set before the first creation event. I am curious about Stu's view on this. Have you checked with Martin on this, I am sure he has an opinion as well about this. I'm including Martin and Phil Stirtz in my reply as I am curious in what they might have to say.
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Stuart Orr wrote:

Thanks for sharing Dave. I am happy you introduced me to epigenetics but don't have much to contribute -- except perhaps some immediate reactions --
• "the sins of the father are passed on to future generations"
• I am not surprised that Darwinian mechanisms are not the only game in town. As Lee points out 95% is NOT "Junk" DNA as it has been ignorantly labeled.
• The rebirth of Lamarckianism is precious to me as it has been ridiculed for 160 years by Darwinists. Lamarck believed in the "life force" which methodological naturalists reject out of hand
• Lee believes there are natural mechanisms for the origin of the species. I think the species were specially created by God. My evidence? The biblical account which I think trumps the faith that science will disprove it.
• I too would like to hear Martin and Phil's take.

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Martin Fessenmaier wrote ....

Hi Stu,
Interesting field, but as far as the TIME article is concerned, as unfortunately almost always, it's good entertainment but poor science. I do not dispute that certain traits along the germ line cells can be modified using external stimuli, but the idea or extrapolation that you could one day determine your genetic destiny is speculative at best. For one, it is the genetic activity that is affected in the progeny and not the 'hard-coded' sequence. What has been shown is that certain genes can be more or less active in the offspring in response to external conditions. But to go as far as to say that the change can be converted to a permanent and encoded (rather than methylation status change) change is ill supported.

I believe that what we see in the epigenetics field is yet another 'hard-coded' feature in our make-up, namely that genetic flexibility and response to environmental stimuli is not limited to cells, organs, and individual organisms, but may be cross generational barriers. So in my perspective, it's again about adaptation, not permanent changes. I'll read up on this some more and follow up then.


http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1951968,00.html?artId=1951968?contType=article?chn=sciHealth

Lee - I think we're very close to being together on this topic!! Much confusion, was created perhaps by how we were using the term "force." Sometimes I was referring to F=P/D/T in a physical science sense (and having fun playing with equations). Other times I meant "force" in a biblical sense (spirtual forces). My thrust always being directed to the forces of God in control over the forces of nature. I was calling it a "force" in a physical sense I thought for your sake. My point being, forces are real; they provide evidence for themselves; and they may even be measurable to some degree (RSME research).

I agree with you that, "Information is a great force in the world, it's just not a physical force as defined by science." Scientists who don't accept the information paradigm are stuck in a fantasy of their own making. They must say reality consists only of matter which can be detected by our 5 senses. Yet we all "know" (by a different kind of sensing) that there is an immaterial reality, which they in turn they must deny! There is a reality beyond our 5 senses. In addition to the Bible, secular philosophers have shown this rather rather conclusively, e.g., John Locke and Immanual Kant. When we examine an apple with our 5 senses we measure the physical properties that are in the apple. Its redness, aroma and taste, however, are not in the apple -- they are in us (Locke). Kant showed that the world is both "phenomenal" (the things that science can grasp) and "noumenal" (the mental conception of things). You could know every scientific property about me, but you will never know what it is like to be me. The "brights" as the "new" atheistic scientists and philosophers like to call themselves, are really the "dims" (witted that is). They don't want to deal with reality -- only their reductionist construction of it. They even go so far as to claim that morality and free-will can be understood exclusively in the phenomenal realm, i.e., without the noumenal. But there are permanent and inescapble limits to naturalistic science. It is fool's play to pretend otherwise.

Regarding material objects in heaven. I agree there is something like "material" in heaven since Scripture tells us about it. But it must exist under a difference set of "physical laws" (entropy, gravity, etc.). I don't know anything more than that.

Perhaps this will clear up my previous exposition? I know I'm frustrating you by not answering some of your direct questions. But, now that we're on a closer wavelength do you mind asking them again, perhaps in short numbered sequence format? I will give you the courtesy of a direct response to each.

Here are 4 different translations of:
Colossians 2:8

(New American Standard Bible)
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

(Young's Literal Translation)
See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ,

(Amplified Bible)
See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).

(The Message)
8-10 Watch out for people who try to dazzle you with big words and intellectual double-talk. They want to drag you off into endless arguments that never amount to anything. They spread their ideas through the empty traditions of human beings and the empty superstitions of spirit beings. But that's not the way of Christ. Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.


Bret* 2010

Wisdom
I believe in men's perspective, wisdom is arbitrary.
Al Gore and Barak Obama both received the nobel peace prize at some point in time.
Both cases I personally find a farce. Now is the nobel committee considered wise? Maybe in some case yes, in these cases I would argue no. Surely there are people that disagree with me. Ultimately God knows.
(and yes, I do think that both aforementioned men have great knowledge, but don't think they are wise in Biblical terms)


Disagreement
This is a forum about the age of the earth (the hint is in the title).
We know we don't all agree.
In fact, if you count my responses (only counting the most recently active three members, besides me) I probably respond least to Bret's post, next in line is Stu, I guess, and most I respond to Lee.
The latter member is also who get's most criticism.
For personal attack and insult I apologise, although I think if one carefully reads my post I think these are minimal.
My posts are mostly built around disagreements, hence I reply to Bret very little on this forum.
If you are offended at this position of mine, let me ask you this:
If we all agreed 100%, then this forum would not exist in the first place, right? I mean, we could all agree on everything, but we might as well gather like a bunch of pensioners around a cup of tea and be jolly happy about it, but surely that was not the intend of this forum, or was it?
Also (Lee), I pick a number of statements from you posts, and respond to them. Perhaps this is, say, 20% of your post. This means that, say, 80% of your post I agree with or I find not worth responding to. So just because large portions do not get referred to, does not mean I totally disagree on everything.
Discussion forums thrive on disagreement, or else there would be little to discuss...


LT

Hi Lee,
thanks for your response.
You say that this will be your last post to me (again). I wonder.

Anyway, let's look at some of your comments, and if you do not wish to read it, maybe the others will.

Yes, we only know each other from this forum, which is quite limited.
Based on this, you think i am a sloth, and I do not like you or your theology. Both are probably rash (unwise) conclusions.
I like science, but I do not like all interpretations of the data. I think some of it is inconsistent with what the Bible has to say. We all have the same microscope, oscilloscopes and other devices, but ultimately the interpretation is based on someone's worldview, and with some of these, I disagree and thus do not like them.
Do you understand the difference between data and the obtaining of this data, versus the interpretation of it?

***Lee: "I must first say that improved cognition is the primary distinction that separates us from the apes"
Bible (Gen. 1:27): So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
I would argue that cognition is not of greatest importance when it comes to reflecting God's image, because even babies are made in God's image, and they know next to nothing, other than what has been preloaded by our God.

***Lee: "I saw where you changed God's words to just include moral knowledge."
Lucien quoting Lee's previous message: "Proverbs 1:7 Fearing the LORD is the beginning of moral knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
So actually it was YOU who included the word MORAL. Since the translations I used did not use it, I put it in brackets. I did not sneak it in, did not take it out, merely put it in brackets. You tell me I don't read your posts, looks to me YOU don't read your posts.

***Lee: "God has wonderful plans for all who make it into Heaven"
Lucien: I believe He has a plan for everyone, even non-believers (weren't we all before we converted?). Just a shame that a lot of people do not live up to and miss God's plans altogether.

***Lee: "Good works are very important as the Great Commission commands us to do. "
Bible (Matt. 28:19-20): Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Lucien: So if you consider 'making disciples, baptisms and teaching to obey commandments' good works, then yes, you are right. However, I ask, how many of these are directly linked with 'technical' knowledge, as you call it. I would argue next to nothing.

***Lee: "first you insult me by stating that I am not wise,"
Lucien: I spoke the truth, I personally do not believe I would class you as wise, but I have high standards. I would not class myself in that category either. There are maybe some traces at some moments in my life that I may act wisely, but they are few and far between. i am sure you may have some of those moments too. So there, I have now insulted me too. But yes, if one wise action would add a person into the wise category, then you and I both would be classed as wise. Without revelation from God, it is difficult to decide who truly is wise. I think any view is quite relative, other than, like i said, God's view.

***Lee: "you associate me with the Al Queda and Obama"
Lucien: I gave you a few examples, I could have included myself, George W Bush (does the latter make you happier?) and quite a few others. Knowledge does not per se lead to wisdom. It takes a lot of knowledge for example, to make an A-bomb. But you could argue that wisdom lacked when it was made, instead of using the same technology solely for peaceful energy purposes.
If i made a list 'these are not pink elephants': Lee, Al Qaeda, Obama, would you also be upset? Of course I do not think you are a terrorist like Al Qaeda is, or dangerous, like I believe Obama is.
My mission is not to continuously criticise you. The whole world does not revolve around you, but sometimes you do ask for it. A statement like "it hurts me too much to be constantly insulted by a Brother that doesn't like me, nor believe that anything I say is true." is an exaggeration (I asked you a million times not to do that, LOL). I do believe some things that you say and I do not constantly insult you. That you perceive most of my statements as insults is your view. I suspect a neutral reader would not think it AS BAD as you portray it to be. But that is neither here nor there.

***Lee: "I ask you as a brother in Christ to please stop responding to my posts to Stu or Bret."
Lucien: Sorry, I cannot promise that. As I read your posts and if I pick up contradictions or logically fallacies, I may point these out, if the others don't. This is to edify everybody. If I falsely do so, then I must stand corrected, but I don't think anyone would benefit from arguments build if it contains errors and these are not exposed.
You don't have to reply to me, but that does not mean I cannot reply to your posts. This is a forum. If you wish to converse with Stu or Bret or anyone in private, then contact them on their emails, nobody is stopping you.

Finally, thanks for the Proverbs.


Lucien

Thanks for clarifying your position further. You may be a hard working person, I don't know. I was assessing only what you have written on this blog. The sloth comment only applies to an unwilling attitude to learn about science (how this world works).  It was clear from your posts that your knowledge of science is very limited and that you have a very mistrusting view of this scientific body of knowledge.  My impression is that you have condemned it and the people that work in it without your having much understanding of the subject matter. If I'm wrong about this, I apologize to you. You say you like science, but it is not clear to me what you like based on your prior posts.  Maybe it's the biased science only that supports the YE position.    

You seem entrenched in the view that 'works' and technical knowledge don't count for much with God. I disagree with you on these very important points however. They count a lot as we see in Proverbs and throughout scripture. The only part that I can agree with you on is that we are saved by grace alone so that no one can brag about it.  We don't acquire knowledge nor do good works to get into Heaven, that's by grace.  We acquire knowledge and do good works to honor, show our appreciation for what He has given us, and please God by attempting to become more like Him. 

Maybe you have something against Catholics, which I'm not, that drives you against good works. We do good works to gain treasure in Heaven; to be of service or help out God's other children while on earth. 

We gain knowledge to grow in discernment and increase our wisdom, to separate facts from fantasy, truth from lies so that we can discern good from evil.   He wants us to do this as it makes us more like Him in our Spirit.  I'm not sure why you don't see the importance of this. Your excuse not to generally value knowledge was based on the inability of some to not acquire it. This seems a rather lame reason to me,

[Lucien]- 'B) people who are in some way mentally handicapped are also handicapped in becoming more like their Father. I say NO, NO, NO.  If cognition is anything that makes me more like God, then I have fully misunderstood the Gospel.'

I must first say that improved cognition is the primary distinction that separates us from the apes, so you shouldn't belittle it. You are the only species that can read, write, and talk as a result of this God given cognitive ability.   I think you have greatly understood the Bible on this point based on all of the proverbs that make a contradiction to your claim. 

I saw where you changed God's words to just include moral knowledge.    Your assessment that moral knowledge is important but technical knowledge is not is an arbitrary distinction that you have made.  Of course there is a distinction between moral knowledge and technical knowledge but all of it is important.  God gave us Proverbs which shows us that He values all knowledge, not just moral knowledge, and so should you.

God has wonderful plans for all who make it into Heaven, the cognitive elite to the dullest minds that make the human threshold.  It is for God to decide upon our new bodies and meat computers that our immaterial information will run on. Perhaps we all become supergeniuses in the end just like our Father.  We will all have as much time as we need to acquire what we haven't learned on earth. I'm just trying to get a jump on that process so that I can be of service sooner than later, reach out to others that don't know the good news, and glorify God while on earth. I would hope that you want to do this as well.  Good works are very important as the Great Commission commands us to do.     

You may not have done this intentionally, although I think you did, but first you insult me by stating that I am not wise, then you associate me with the Al Queda and Obama (both anti-Christian Muslims). Brother, now I know you have a mean non-Christian spirit within. I can't have a dialogue without you insulting me. I ask you as a brother in Christ to please stop responding to my posts to Stu or Bret. I don't intend to write to you anything more since you are partially reading it but understanding so little of what I write.  I believe you have a greatly distorted view of the wisdom in the Bible.  Sorry to have to do this brother, but our dialogue goes nowhere and it hurts me too much to be constantly insulted by a Brother that doesn't like me, nor believe that anything I say is true. 

Lucien since you enjoyed the verses in my last post, I found some more that seem appropriate for you to ponder and added them below. You can have the last word.   Farewell!   
 
Proverbs 19:2 It is dangerous to have zeal without knowledge, and the one who acts hastily makes poor choices.

Proverbs 16:2 All a person's ways seem right in his own opinion, but the LORD evaluates the motives.

Proverbs 11:29 The one who troubles his family will inherit nothing, and the fool will be a servant to the wise person.

Proverbs 12:1 The one who loves discipline loves knowledge, but the one who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 29:20 Do you see someone who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Proverbs 15:12 The scorner does not love one who corrects him; he will not go to the wise.

Proverbs 16:28 A perverse person spreads dissension, and a gossip separates the closest friends.

Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.

Proverbs 26:24 The one who hates others disguises it with his lips, but he stores up deceit within him.  25 When he speaks graciously, do not believe him, for there are seven abominations within him.

Proverbs 27:22 If you should pound the fool in the mortar among the grain with the pestle, his foolishness would not depart from him.

Proverbs 15:24 The path of life is upward for the wise person, to keep him from going downward to Sheol.

Proverbs 15:31 The person who hears the reproof that leads to life is at home among the wise.

Proverbs 16:32 Better to be slow to anger than to be a mighty warrior, and one who controls his temper is better than one who captures a city.

Proverbs 17:10 A rebuke makes a greater impression on a discerning person than a hundred blows on a fool.

Proverbs 19:11 A person's wisdom makes him slow to anger,  and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Proverbs 26:21 Like charcoal is to burning coals, and wood to fire, so is a contentious person to kindle strife.

Proverbs 23:23 Acquire truth and do not sell it -  wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.

I think you have taken my last post much worse than it actually is.

You and I seem to always misinterpret or misunderstand each others posts (or so we say), and that probably may have led to most of our frustrations with one another.

I like the verses you quote, and for some reason you seem to think that my last post was focussed on how I dislike science.
If that is how you perceived it, then that's a shame (the only apology I make).

HERE IS THE FOCUS I INTENDED and I do not withdraw a word of it, but let me re-word my concern by again quoting a statement from you, and then sharing why that statement upsets me:
"How will you ever grow spiritually to be like your Father in Heaven if you don't learn how things really work."

My spiritual growth has nothing to do with my knowledge. Neither will my study of His creation make me anything more like Him, then I already am.
This is NOT (repeat NOT) to do with anything I have accomplished or ever will, but when my Daddy looks at me, He sees Jesus. Even my sins are not reflected, but they are put as far as the east is from the west, because of Jesus.

Now when I read your statement, and again, this is the focus, it seems to me like there is an underlying (Catholic?) tone in it, that because of my knowledge I can become more like our Father God.
A) It makes me think about the serpent and his words to Eve in the garden of Eden. Knowledge of good and evil.
B) people who are in some way mentally handicapped are also handicapped in becoming more like their Father. I say NO, NO, NO. If cognition is anything that makes me more like God, then I have fully misunderstood the Gospel. I say Jesus' redemption of this wretched soul has made me like God. Not that I am like Him, but I reflect His image, because of Jesus. If anything that God wants me to do, it is to obey His laws and stop sinning.
Not you, nor me, nor Stu or Bret, or anyone on this planet is perfect, other than those who have been cleansed by the blood of the perfect Lamb, and only because of that, not because of their works.
Any Master, PhD or whatever will not make us more like Him. He is not impressed with our studies. He is happy though, when we don't sin and do obey His laws.

The Proverbs you quoted. Brilliant!
1:7 speaks about (moral) knowledge starting with fearing the Lord. I.e. It starts with becoming a Christian to make sense of it all. Despising wisdom and instruction has nothing to do with gaining or not scientific knowledge, but non-Christians not fearing the Lord and ignoring Him.
1:22 the context appears to be 'wisdom' speaking to non-believers:
-IF you turn...then I will pour my Spirit v.23
-I called out and you refused...no one paid attention v24
-you neglected all my counsel v25
-didn't choose to fear the Lord v29
Besides, I do not hate knowledge, I just don't think it is a way (because it would be WORKS and not GRACE) to become more like the Father. I rather rely on THE WAY, Jesus the Christ.
4:7 Of course wisdom is supreme, that is why the Lord was so delighted with Solomon when he asked for it. Note carefully though that wisdom is NOT the same as knowledge in the English language.
Here is one to annoy you: I think you have a lot of knowledge, but I think you still lack in wisdom (don't we all?).
I think Al Qaeda has a lot of knowledge, but they are not wise.
Dare I say that Obama has a lot of knowledge, but he is not wise.
10:14 case in point. Somebody who is wise, will store up knowledge. So you need to be the first, and then do the latter. Which brings us around to 1:7, fearing the Lord is wise, and the beginning of knowledge.

Anyway, hope you feel a bit better after this email.
Lucien
(PS, I hope you see that in this whole email (nor the previous one) I did not refer to billions of years or 6,000 years, so this has little or nothing to do with being OE or YE, as you portray it to be. If you think I am lazy and illogical, then that is fine with me, but
A) do not generalise all YE adherents to be the same as me, especially since
B) you know next to nothing of my life, so I am quite bewildered how you think I am lazy, but I guess it depends on what your definition of laziness is)

Call  this tough love if you will.  

Proverbs 1:7 Fearing the LORD is the beginning of moral knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 1:22 "How long will you simpletons love naiveté? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is supreme - so acquire wisdom, and whatever you acquire, acquire understanding!

The Bible goes on and on about the importance of wisdom and understanding. Yet I am mocked, accused wrongfully, and insulted by Lucien in every post. I am not sure if he has a Christian heart.   

Ephesians 4:31 You must put away every kind of bitterness, anger, wrath, quarreling, and evil, slanderous talk.   32 Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.

Lucien, 
The fact that you don't like me has been apparent for a long time based on your many slanderous remarks.   I know that you don't like OE scientists like me, that disagree with you about the history of this earth and creatures on it, but it seems to me that some introspection is in order for you to determine how you should adjust your demeanor to other Christians who disagree with you.  Your mocking, insinuations, quarreling, slanderous comments about me are just not Christian-like. 

I meant every word of what I said in my post, but again you have misunderstood my words and were quick to judge and try to ridicule me.  This time you incorrectly presumed that I was denigrating you (and others) for an imagined inability to learn about physics and natural sciences.  The truth is that I'm trying to push you out of your comfort zone.  As a YE it is easy for you to sit back and condemn everything that science has learned without really knowing very much science. This behavior is slothful. You have written off a whole body of valuable knowledge called science that God wants you and others to know that confirms His existance and glorifies Him by its design.  It looks to me that you and many others in the YE camp are just being conveniently indolent because it is hard work to learn science. I think a young man such as you is perfectly capable of it and so are many others that pursue this path of laziness and illogical thinking. People need to learn as much as they can about God's wonderful Creation.     
 
I leave you with the verse below and hope you will withdraw your last post before you embarass yourself further by going down this path.  This is the path of ignorance is bliss and foolishness is rewarded in Heaven.   God tells us clearly in Proverbs through Solomon, the wisest in his day, that ignorance and foolishness is not rewarded.  I will accept your apology and discontinue my attack on your embrace of ignorance, if you so choose, but it's your call.  I care about you and I am willing to teach you some of God glorifying science if you are willing to learn it.    

    Proverbs 10:14 Those who are wise store up knowledge, but foolish speech leads to imminent destruction.

Lee

Retracting a statement because it may upset someone is something completely different than a contradiction Lee.
I retracted, you contradicted.
But nice try to spin it around. And again another logical fallacy on your behalf.

Sorry I misrepresented your statement that you had said 99.99999% of natural laws were understood.
However, I actually was at a science conference recently and there is a lot, including natural laws that you so adhere to, that is up for grabs. Your faith in natural laws and their understanding, so ultimately your faith in human scientists who are sinners and have a fallen mind is ultimately the concern I have. I am not against science, but I think I better approach it than you; with due care.

The reason I don't like you Lee, is not because of statements towards me. You can say anything you like against me.
It is because of statements like "How will you ever grow spiritually to be like your Father in Heaven if you don't learn how things really work."

There are many people in this world with a lower IQ than me. Sorry, this is not arrogance, but simply a deduction in that my education is at a higher level than the majority of people out there.
A lot of these people will understand even less of how things work than me. Are you implying that these people can even develop less spiritually? Will they be even less like their Heavenly Father than me? Surely not! But you imply it with your statement, and although maybe not intended, this sort of statements again make me doubt you theology.
It seems to be based on intelligence/knowledge/cognition maybe, whereas I think the highest in heaven could very well be the simplest of the simpletons, those maybe with an IQ of 50, but simply proclaiming the Gospel. Remember, the message of the Gospel is like foolishness to the gentiles (1 Cor. 1:23), and your earthly wisdom is like foolishness in God's sight (1 Cor. 3:19)!

Lucien
PS, where I am going with Enoch and Elijah is that science has never shown anyone being lifted up into heaven ( and not coming down somewhere), and yet you claim to know the science of heaven, like there not being entropy, which I actually tend to agree with you on. However, our natural laws link time and entropy closely. So you are saying there is no time in heaven? I think there is! And no, science has never shown anyone travelling form one dimension to another, so your other dimension is a rescue device which can probably not be falsified and thus not scientific.

Lucien, 

You were the one that called me almighty and omniscent then took it back.  You seem to be the one contradicting yourself. I never would make such a claim, are you feeling okay? 

The reason I think you should study more science (how this world works) is based on your own statement 'Well, I believe n the supernatural and am quite content not understanding much.' This is what I meant by 'ignoring it [science] all'. How will you ever grow spiritually to be like your Father in Heaven if you don't learn how things really work.  I'm sorry that my intended humorous remark about teaching you in Heaven blew up in my face. It was intended to be an act of grace and service to you.  It seems I can't discuss these topics with you without bringing out the worst in you: obstreperous behavior and vitriolic remarks condemning me. Please continue your discussion with Stu and Bret on Elijah and Enoch and your quest for Bible verses supporting your view that supports decay in Heaven and good luck finding them. If you actually found some verses to support your view that things decay in Heaven, that actually would make me frantic.   Maybe I'll join back in some day after a your search is exhausted.

Lucien and Bret, 

Your claim that I said we know 99.999% of everything there is to to know is a major distortion of my post.

[Bret] I do remember that Lee once stated that Science already knows (about) 99.999% of everything that there is to know about the Universe (which implies everything) !!!

 Here is what I posted in response to an earlier Lucien statement:  

'[Lucien]
Or, maybe we have not fully understood the natural laws, and we only think we do?

[Lee]- we are understanding them fairly well these days, not 100% more like 99.99999999999%. It amazes me that God made this universe comprehensible, knowable and learnable just for us, His children.'. 

I was clearly addressing the four natural laws only and not the entirety of all knowledge. I believe that the four physical laws are but a infinitesimal amount of the overall knowledge contained in our universe. These four laws, however, serve as a foundation for other natural processes built upon them in which our universities and research labs endeavor to discover more. There is still plenty to learn about, don't worry guys, you haven't totally missed out!     

The percentage came from our human ability to measure accurately the mathematical model prediction for general relativity and quantum electro-dynamics, both math models of the laws have shown extreme accuracy in predicting the real measured values. If the equations are off, they are not very far off.  This is what gives the scientific community the confidence that they are on the right path of discovering God's laws and truth.

Why do you both intentionally distort what I post? This seems curiously wicked on your part. Please stop your vile deception!     

Stu, 

Sometiimes I don't think you are reading my posts. Then, sometimes, I think I am a terrible writer and so abstruse the no one understands anything I write. Not sure why but we have a 'failure to communicate'. 

You asked me several questions related to my beliefs like you are questioning them. I would have hoped after a year of writing blogs at this site that you would realize that am totally syncronized with the Biblical teachings. I guess what you are really asking is: Do I interpret all verses the same as you?  Probably not, but who does.  I think we agree on the fundamentals though.    

Let me respond simply to your inquiries. Maybe if I answer your questions, you will give me the courtesy of some answers to the questions I have asked repeatedly. In your reply, if you don't have an answer just state so. It's okay, because none of us know all the answers, we are speculating a lot in our posts.   But lately no one is answering any of my tough question so it confirms my view that your views are not rational i. e. based on logic and you're clueless on how your hypothesis is implemented.  

Stu wrote 'I think you agree' statements and concluded with:
'If all the above is true then I am having a very difficult time understanding why you do not accept my dualistic explanation for "spiritual force." 
Spiritual forces simply are those immaterial forces which operate in the material world but in a different dimension. The existence of these forces are revealed to us in Scripture, and the evidence for them is primarily given by those who experience them. But there is even a growing body of materialistic scientific evidence that demonstrate immaterial forces are real. ...'

I think it is pretty amazing that we can agree on so much on 'I think you agree' statements but be tenaciously fighting over such a few minor points that I just can't seem to get across to you: primarily this force, your spiritual force, that you think is in mankind is information which by its very nature is immaterial. Information is a great force in the world, it's just not a physical force as defined by science.  

Maybe I can get through to you in this post, I will pray (convey information) to God (controller of information throughout Heaven, the heavens, and earth) that You (information processing on your bodies' meat computer) will see (understand the information) my point (explanation) about how dualism (man's spiritual nature) is really just immaterial information distributed throughout the brain (material body).   That we (disembodied information) are not part of this world, we exist as and operate on information, we are immaterial and can be conveyed to new bodies in new sets of dimensions by God.  While here in this existance my immaterial information operates on my meat computer. When I accepted Jesus' wonderful invitation, He installed His HS background comm program (interdimensional HS link address information) on my meat computer only installable by Him to act as a counselor and provide a direct access to God and tremendous powers over this set of dimensions and laws. I am insignificant without this extra almighty program. I think each of you reading this may have one too.   It makes me a coheir of Heaven one day with all the other children of God, even Lucien, believe or not, without much desire to learn how his meat computer works.  Sorry, Lucien, I couldn't resist the urge, I'm joking of course.  

By the way that whole last paragraph was immaterial. For that matter all information in the blog is also immaterial, but oh so valuable, at least my portion and some of Stu's.  Alright, Bret you've been on a roll a few times as well.  Lucien, if you'll stop misrepresenting my info I'll even give you some credit!       

Now, back to Stu, I disagreed with only two comments:
1) 'So it should be no conceptual challenge to accept the dualistic nature of man'
I do accept the dualistic nature of man, mind and body, it is just not an extra physical force in this set of dimensions needed to make brains function.  People (sealed or not) and animals would continue to think if this HS force disappeared tomorrow (which it won't) and wasn't available to anyone until 2000 years ago. This 'force' as you call it, is just information processing being performed by your brain using only the four physical laws. 

There is another real force that you are describing and referenced in the Bible, which is controlled by God, and beyond of our set of dimensions.  This external force cannot be measured by any of our instruments because it doesn't couple to the four known fields. The 'power' of this force comes from outside dimensions beyond ours. These forces provide a connection between the spiritual dimensions and the information in our brains and energy throughout our universe. This force can be used by God to read, control and create energy including its distribution in space-time.  By doing this, information can be sent between our dimensions. As 'Our' information is altered by our free will decisions and life events, or infused by inter-dimensional forces or suppressed by the same, our bodily actions will change. I believe this to be the mechanism of spiritual possession or HS interaction with us that is the 'power' of the HS that the Bible refers to.  This interactive force or interdimensional HS program  is not what gives animals the ability to think and what I described as brain functions that give us the ability to think. No extra physical force in nature or extra-dimensional force from the HS is needed to think. You have combined and confused the two different topics. 
    
2) 'that heaven and hell (immaterial) are real places, and distinct from this world (material).'

The issue that I have with this view is that your view rejects the possibility that Heaven can contain objects like rivers, thrones, etc.  I don't agree with you that objects can only exist in this world. For that matter, the new creation will have objects or material things in it including our new bodies.  I believe if any set of dimensions is set up properly by the correct rules, fields, twists, turns, and sizes of the dimensions there that spatial objects can exist. Maybe we are using a different definition for material. My definition is time stable spatially structured energy.  What is yours?" 
 
Okay, I have tried one more time to explain my views on how dualism is real and involves real known material forces and immaterial forces (information) and why I don't think your Biblical quotes apply to the ability of humans and animals to think.  I also believe my views expressed above address each of the 'I think you agree' probes you set before me. If not let's discuss them further.  

Here are a few more answers or comments to your questions. 

Stu stated:    As an aside, there is also the dualistic nature of light, which I assume you accept, which could also be used as an analogy.

Yes, I agree with duality in the properties of light particles, wave and discrete. Both characteristics result from the natural properties of Maxwell's law and quantum laws. The physical laws permit duality of light particles. No new extra force or law is needed, this seems to be a bad example for you to use to make your case.

Stu also questioned me with the following: Why then are you so insistent that these spiritual forces have to have some sort of direct mechanism (complete with equations) that ties them to the 4 physical laws of the material world? Why are you consistently putting me in a box to explain spiritual (immaterial) forces in terms of physical (material) forces?' 

Trust me, you are among the last people I know that I would put in a box.  You are a dear friend!  There are just a couple of your illusions that I would put in that box!  Hopefully, soon, you will be ready to bury them. I will keep trying to get you to see that death is the best thing for them. 

One of them is that the mind is driven by an extra spiritual force that can't be measured, yet drives our bodies which exist because of the other four forces that can be measured. You have just imagined an enigma. If a force couples to a known field it must have an equation to describe the coupling. You may not know the answer yet but we should be able to set up the right experiment in principle and test for it to check your hypothesis. But you say it is real but immaterial and unmeasurable but yet controls the four other fources. This is irrational speak coming from you.  It makes no sense to me anyway. 

The other is that HS power is the same force that that our minds create intelligent thought with. I'm sorry, I just don't see how this can be true. The engineer and scientist in me makes me question how this could work. I don't see it any way. People are born, grow up, learn and do many things over their lives and never receive the HS. Some of them produce very intelligent ideas and sometime great discoveries: like Einstein.  Maybe you can describe this mental processing force better and some concepts on how it couples to the HS for Christian humans but not for animals and non- Christian humans except demonic forces but still allows all to clearly think and live their lives. 

Lee

PS I tried to make this monologue a bit more stimulating and interesting for you. How'd I do?

Hi Bret,

yes, and I do believe that Lee had some more 9's as decimals than you and I quoted him.
Of course this is an absurd statement.
After all, why do we still have so many universities and research centres?
Why do we still have so many incurable diseases as cancer and MS and many others?

I am not trying to poison the well here Lee, but your confidence in science is just too great for my likes.
It is that I am not a gambling man, but your 13.7 billion years for the universe for example... well, I predict that before the year 2020 it will have changed once again, as it has so many times in the past.
As for the origins of man, which keeps sliding between 100,000 years and 2 million years.
If people would simply read the Bible, we would all simply settle for day 6, around 4000 BC.
The Word of God, the same yesterday, today and forever...


L

I do remember that Lee once stated that Science already knows (about) 99.999%
of everything that there is to know about the Universe (which implies everything) !!!
I'm sure that he would even admit that this claim was somewhat hyperbolic?
I'm guessing that his resistance to the possibility that an additional "Force" may
exist in addition to the four accepted known Forces ... may stem from his perceived
notion that there just isn't enough room left in the category of Scientific Unknowns
to accommodate a NEW 5th Force?
Science already knows too much about the other 4-Forces and the material make-up of
the Universe and its origin to not have detected an additional Force that would have
to be incorporated into the existing equations that already explain how ALL things work!
(How am I doing so far Lee?)
But ... when I read all of the latest cutting edge explanations about the make-up of
our Universe ... I'm quickly reminded about a couple of minor mysteries!
Dark Matter, Dark Energy, Dark Flow, Gravitons ... etc. !!!
These are Things & Forces that make-up OVER 95% of our Universe that Science speculates
to exist ... but knows virtually NOTHING about !!!
We can NOT see, measure, or detect ANY of these things ... but Lee gladly accepts
their existence without mathematical explanation or physical detection ???
So ... I think that his insistence for Stu to show & prove the Math of his hypothesis
is somewhat unfair ... and maybe even a little pretentious!
I believe it is safer & more accurate to say that ... Science isn't REALLY sure about 99.999% of ANYTHING !!!
But ... God knows 100% about 100% of Everything 100% of the Time !!!


Bret* 2010

So why do you think Enoch and Elijah are in the heaven where entropy does not reign?


"Please stop calling me 'almighty', only God is. I'm just trying to learn what I can while here. You would do well for yourself to do likewise instead of ignoring it all."

And I call you almighty precisely because of statements like this. How dare you say that I am ignoring it all, unless you are omniscient.
The fact that some people do not agree with your view does not mean they are ignoring it all. That is an incorrect conclusion mister.
Especially since in the post before you posted "You both deserve a prize for at least thinking about what I have posted." So you are also contradicting yourself, even two sentences later in THAT SAME post. Hmmm, God does not contradict Himself, so maybe i should stop using that term for you.

Another reason why I think I should continue to call you almighty:
"Your prize will be to spend more time with me in eternity as I teach you the way Heaven works."
I'd rather hear it from the Master Himself than you, to be honest. Besides, I think I'd rather play football with Kaka then listening to your endless monologues.

OK Lee, I will stop, but just to make you realise that within the last two Lee posts you have contradicted yourself more than once, so even Lee (not almighty) does not know it all and makes mistakes.


Lucien
PS, I would still like to continue the Enoch and Elijah conversation since I think you are wrong and I may have Biblical evidence for it...
(if this causes you to frantically start reading your Bible, then great!)

I think you believe in the Trinitarian God having a unified nature consisting of 3 distinct Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So it should be no conceptual challenge to accept the dualistic nature of man.

I think you agree that the Bible teaches that man has a unified nature of two distinct elements -- body and soul. [Some Christians further divide soul into "soul and spirit" but that's a theological debate with little bearing on my point which is that man is simultaneously material (body) and immaterial (soul/spirit).] As an aside, there is also the dualistic nature of light, which I assume you accept, which could also be used as an analogy.

I think you agree with the biblical teaching that man has a material life (body) that begins at conception, and an immaterial life (soul) that begins in the womb, survives physical death and continues to live for eternity.

I think you agree with the biblical teaching that heaven and hell (immaterial) are real places, and distinct from this world (material). You have stated that you believe heaven exists in "a different set of dimensions" (I agree with that view).

I think you agree with the biblical teaching of the bodily resurrection and ascension of God the Son which transcends the physical laws of nature and builds "some sort of bridge" between the world (material) and heaven (immaterial). The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the main material evidence revealed to us to believe in this "bridge."

I think you agree that one becomes a Christian by freely believing in Jesus. God the Holy Spirit (immaterial) then indwells the Christian (material) and give his or her soul access to heaven.

If all the above is true then I am having a very difficult time understanding why you do not accept my dualistic explanation for "spiritual force." Spiritual forces simply are those immaterial forces which operate in the material world but in a different dimension. The existence of these forces are revealed to us in Scripture, and the evidence for them is primarily given by those who experience them. But there is even a growing body of materialistic scientific evidence that demonstrate immaterial forces are real. As a Christian, however, the primary source of evidence is the Bible and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit.

Why then are you so insistent that these spiritual forces have to have some sort of direct mechanism (complete with equations) that ties them to the 4 physical laws of the material world? Why are you consistently putting me in a box to explain spiritual (immaterial) forces in terms of physical (material) forces? The Bible provide clear evidence that both forces exist side by side (dualism), even though in different dimensions:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms (Eph 5:12).

God even goes so far as to provide material evidence for the presence of these spiritual forces in the material world through the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. (This is sufficient evidence for me to believe in my future bodily resurrection.) I don't think we need equations even though it was fun trying to dream some up

1 Cor 15: If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins ...
There are .. heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; .. the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.... If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body ... it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body ... The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet

Lucien,  

It was a conclusion that I reached from the following verses: 

Luke 12:33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide yourselves purses that do not wear out - a treasure in heaven that never decreases, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

Matthew 6:19 "Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal.

Isaiah 51:6 Look up at the sky! Look at the earth below! For the sky will dissipate like smoke, and the earth will wear out like clothes; its residents will die like gnats. But the deliverance I give is permanent; the vindication I provide will not disappear.

Daniel 4:34 But at the end of the appointed time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven, and my sanity returned to me. I extolled the Most High,  and I praised and glorified the one who lives forever.  For his authority is an everlasting authority,  and his kingdom extends from one generation to the next.

As you can see, from the above that I didn't make up the permanency of Heaven and things in it. While things on earth rot or decay (driven by entropy). Entropy is a direct result of our physical laws. This means no entropy in Heaven with different physical laws.  

Please stop calling me 'almighty', only God is. I'm just trying to learn what I can while here. You would do well for yourself to do likewise instead of ignoring it all.  

Lee

Ah I see.
A different dimension where different laws apply. Unlike the ones that apply in the first four that e can observe.
Very convenient.
Have you or anyone observed this dimension? Or is there Biblical revelation for it?
Or is this another rescue device by the great almighty Lee?

Bret and Lucien,

You both deserve a prize for at least thinking about what I have posted. Most people's eyes just glaze over or close them. Your prize will be to spend more time with me in eternity as I teach you the way Heaven works. You didn't pay attention or read my posts about this world but this one is a throw away anyway, so no big loss. Now open your eyes this time, this one is about Heaven. This is short and sweet so you won't get eye fatigue. Heaven is in a different set of dimensions, there is no entropy there, since nothing decays. Elijah and Enoch won't be breathing, respiration operates off of entropy. Food digestion also results from entropy. We will get energy from a new source that doesn't cause decay.

Lee

Hi Lee

the reason I don't even attempt to explain any of this to you the way I see it is because I simply do not understand how God works, other than in mysterious ways.
You apparently have it all sussed out and can explain virtually anything God does in your natural laws.
Well, I believe n the supernatural and am quite content not understanding much.
Even if I attempted to have a go, it probably would not find approval with your necessity to explain everything according to the things scientists know (which for your info is unlikely to be even close to 99.999% of all there is to know), since I would probably at some stage invoke the supernatural.

And when it comes to not answering questions, how about my Enoch AND Elijah query?


Lucien

Thanks Stu, I applaud you for being the first Christian that I know to try and define the power of the HS in engineering terms of power, force and time.  We are starting to make some progress in the use of logic and details to a small degree.   That was a nice summary of verses that tell us of the power of the Holy Spirit to in-dwell Christians and the power of the HS to change our lives.  I'm very aware of these verses and they make a nice supplement to the discussion.  

Unfortunately, your initial attempt just seems to me as mostly another diversion where there is no attempt again to explain how this proposed new and unobservable force or power interacts with matter or other forces. I have no doubt that God can indwell humans; I have explained it as another program running along with our own somewhat like parallel processing. 
 
I believe all of the verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit has the power to in-dwell and change us. This then is a power retained by God as the HS is a member of the Trinity.  I believe also that the HS has special control of the four physical laws, time, and a special power that permits communication between this universe and His controlling the flow of information (the multidimensional space time organization of energy).  

However, you haven't yet told me how the HS couples His power of your claimed 5th physical law to the other laws we know about. We have equations that describe the interactions for the other physical laws that we can test.  My complaint is that no one on your side of the debate ever attempts to explain in a physical way how this new force might interact or couple with the existing forces of nature but then turns around and claims it can't be measured with instruments sensitive to the other forces. The fifth force either couples or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways.  You still haven't answered the mail unfortunately or my difficult questions.

It seems to me that what you are trying to claim as a new type of power actually fits nicely into the other four plus time and information (the organization of energy).  Your fifth law manifests itself in the others so you ought to be able to at least provide a concept on how it couples to the others. This HS provided information that couples to your thoughts has then the power to affect your thoughts and actions through the neuronal network of your brain. You owe us at least an hypothesis similar to the one I've provided.  

If you really believe that the mind is a new spiritual force, the fifth one. Then please answer the following question:  since the HS uses the fifth force when He indwells us, what force do people use before we are indwelt to think and understand? The Bible states that we don't have this power before the HS comes upon us.   Is there another force, 4.1, that people think with? Do animals have 4.1 also or do they have force 4.01? Another question along these same limes is: What forces do demons use? 5.1 and up?  If all beings are using the same force, how are these beings isolated into distinct personalities: frequency, phase, code multiplexing, or something else?  The more I question this, I am wondering if you have really thought this imaginative hypothesis through carefully.  Good luck sorting through your approach! 

Lee 

Yes Bret,

I did ask where Enoch AND Elijah are right now, but got an answer to another question.
So, where are these TWO people Lee, in your opinion?
Do they still breath (O2 required), do they drink and eat (water and food required)? Etc?


Lucien

I read it !!!
I read the whole long tedious post from brother Lee!
Upon finishing ... I couldn't help but feel like I deserved some kind of reward?
Just like (in the classic Comedy "Caddy Shack")... when Rodney Dangerfield was buying
up everything in the Pro Shop ... and came across an ugly golf hat and said ...
"What a hideous hat! ... You buy a hat like that ... I bet you get a free bowl of soup"!
In fairness ... I'm sure Lee feels the same way after reading this & my other posts as well?
O.K. ... all kidding aside ... I did get a better understanding of Lee's philosophy and
the reasons for why he chooses to believe it!
I fully understand almost everything that he explained ... and can even follow his logic from A-Z !!!
I admire his logical consistency throughout ... but still vehemently disagree !!!
Not because he doesn't understand secular Science ... but because he doesn't seem to
trust and understand the Bible very well !!!

I don't think that Lucien was implying that Enoch was responsible for his magical
transition ... but just wanted to know how Enoch's instantaneous removal from this
Universe to God's presence (Who resides outside of our Universe)... would not be a
fundamental violation of the Fixed Physical Laws ... including his "information"
being lost from our Universe without invoking Hawking's Information Paradox ???

Personally ... I'm more curious about your reference to God's World?
Do you believe that God exists in a different World?
Does His World have spacial dimensions and a form of time?
I'm just a little confused ???


Bret* 2010

This is the first time I ever had to explain the Bible to someone in engineering terminology -- and with metrics no less!

Here's my best attempt to explain the super-natural 5th force as revealed in the Bible. I will deal with its connection to Mind in a future post.

Work is performed when Force (F) is exerted on Body (B) as it moves in the direction of the Force. The rate (distance D over time T) at which Work is done by Force (F) is called Power (P).

Therefore, if Force (F) is exerted on Body (B), and B moves for a distance (D) over time (T) then: F = P / D / T

Example 1
If a 10 horsepower source (1 HP = 550 foot-lbs per second) operates over a distance D of 5 feet, for a time T of 1 second, that would generate 1100 lbs of Force.

F = 10 x 550 / 5 / 1 = 1100

Science reveals the 4 forces of physics of the natural world and is governed by the above equation. The Bible reveals a 5th and more fundamental force in the universe. It is produced by God the Holy Spirit and is not a product of, nor constrained by, the 4 forces of physics. I'll label it Spiritual Force (SF). It is derived from its source HSP (Holy Spirit Power). This supernatural Spiritual Force (SF) can be represented by an equation like its natural world counterpart, i.e.--

SF = HSP / D / T

God is the Source of SP and HSP. Now HSP is defined by the Bible --

Lk 24:49 - I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power (HSP) from on high.

Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power (HSP) when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

Acts 10:38 - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power (HSP), and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him

Rom 15:13 - May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit (HSP)

Rom 15:18-19 - I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit (HSP)

1 Cor 2:4-5 - My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power (HSP), 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

1 Thess 1:5 - because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power (HSP), with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

1 Thess 2:13 - And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work (HSP power over time) in you who believe.

2 Cor 12:9 - But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power (HSP) may rest on me.

2 Cor 4:7 - But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power (HSP) is from God and not from us.

Eph 3:16 - pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power (HSP) through his Spirit in your inner being

Eph 1:19-23 - and his incomparably great power (HSP) for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way

Col 1:11 - being strengthened with all power (HSP) according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience

Phil 4:13 - I can do everything through him who gives me strength (HSP)


Holy Spirit Power (HSP) pervades the entire universe -- whereas the 4 fundamental forces of physics (including dark energy) only pervade the natural (visible) universe. HSP, on the other hand, pervades the invisible (supernatural) universe as well. Jesus Christ is the source of HSP just like He is the Source of the 4 natural forces.

John 1:33 - I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit (HSP).

John 20:22 - And with that he (Jesus) breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." (HSP)

Acts 2:33 - Exalted to the right hand of God, he (Jesus Christ) has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. (HSP)

Hence we can write (Example 2):

If a 10 HSP Source moves Body B for 5 feet in 1 second, that produces 2 units of Spiritual Force (SF): SF = HSP / D / T

SF = 10 / 5 / 1 = 2

Spiritual Force is measurable in Body B in the following ways --

1. Body B will be observed to possess SF through the presence of HSP even though the exact state of Body B will be known only to God (Rom 8:9)
2. Body B, if it possesses HSP will move in the same direction as the application of SF (Gal 5:16-22)
3. Observable SF in Body B is measured by the "Fruit" Body B produces (Mt 7:20)
4. Fruit production accelerates over time if HSP remains present (2 Cor 3:18)
5. Body B has a subjective knowledge that HSP indwells him or her (Rms 8:16)

Hi Lucien,
I believe you'll find that God made each miracle occur, not the prophet. The prophets communicated with God and asked for help on many occassions. Prophets are regular people that God chose to interact with. Nobody but God can control the fixed laws of heaven and earth.
 
God brought the universe into existance in a very special condition, so we know He has control of energy and the physical laws, He created it all. Information is a result of this control; it's the phase and position of all photons and dimensional shape over time in the early universe. If He had control then He certainly had it billions of years later in our world's time when  He made Enoch disappear or lightning bolts consume drenched wood for Elijah. 

I don't know if you are aware of this but tons of hydrogen are converted to neutrinos and pass right through the sun each second like it's not even there.   This is a natural fixed law process. Getting small by comparison Enoch to disappear, is easy for God with His control of energy at the quantum level.  The phase and frequency of energy  must match in multiple dimensions for it to be absrbed or interact with matter waves. There is a lot of energy around us that doesn't interact with our matter. A relatively small change in either phase or frequency will cause matter to not interact. Einstein showed us that time and space is locally controlled and even told us about the extra term in his equations that God can use to manipulate time and space for miracles such as this.     
Lee 

Hi Lee

you took from Monday to Wednesday to write that long post, and I am not sure if I can muster up the will power to read such lengthy posts.
But I did get well into paragraph two, about fixed laws and nothing popping in or out of existence.
We challenged you multiple times on the first, but let me now try the latter:

Where are Enoch and Elijah according to the fixed natural laws?


Lucien

Dear Stu,

Sorry for the delay. My priorities were elsewhere last week, my daughter, son-in-law, and three month old grandson were visiting. Also, I had a lot of paperwork re my Dad's estate to prepare. I've only had about an hour all week to address your posts and mostly reading them.   I'm finally back in action today, Monday.  

There are two basic beliefs that I hold to be true about God's Creation related to our ability to understand it. I could be wrong about both, but I don't believe that I am.  Let me explain.  The first is that God is so clever that He designed this world and it's laws with everything it needs to allow Him to control it and produce all that's in it including beings like us.  Therefore, I believe the existing laws are complete with no need to add new laws or change the existing ones temporarily.   The second is that God is so clever that He made the universe understandable and with fairly simple fixed laws so that His children could learn about it and eventually understand how it operates. That is what I would do if I had his capabilities anyway. I would certainly not try to confuse, exasperate, and constantly trick my children using everchanging laws of physics and pop things in and out of existance like a magic show. I would also try to use the time productively to educate them about good and evil since they are determined to learn about this anyway and eventually isolate my children from bad influences like evil and entropy before moving into a new family complex with many of them in the next phase of our eternal lives. Now as a child of God these may be silly thoughts, although Biblically based, but they seem so right at this stage of my development in Introductory World 101 class that I defend them tenaciously and base much of my hypothesis on how the universe works upon them. The more that I learn about how this universe works, the more I am convinced that my hypotheses are true. 

Contrary to many others in this nation and involved in this debate, I believe that science has discovered many fundamental truths about how this world operates. I believe this to be as God intended for His children. There is great value and benefit from knowledge about this world for us to learn and utilize. Scientists and engineers have learned to do this, other children seem to care less about this knowledge but still enjoy the results.   This great endeavor makes our lives more productive and creative while we are here.  This knowledge we retain during our existance and is worth the effort to acquire it, since we are naturally spiritual informational beings who will live forever.

So, what does this have to do with the GAP?  Well, I believe that a large portion of the GAP has been closed already by His children using good science. We certainly have come a long way from the middle ages of science where some seem to be trapped in understanding based on their knowledge.  I also believe that much of the remainder of worldly knowledge  will likely be discovered over time by future generations of His smartest scientists and engineer children as well. This information will continue to point to God our Father as much or more than that already discovered by good science (that which is tested).
      
You made the following interesting statement:
[Stu]-'What I don't understand why you think your explanation of "'Divine guided dualistic information processing by material systems" is any less God-of-the-gaps than mine. Your hypothesis just hides the "God-thing." And it brings confusion to believers.'

This statement puzzles me because I thought I had carefully laid out my concept in a way that was clearly founded on existing measureable theories of math and physics. I have tried to hide nothing but explain in practical terms how God did it using mechanisms that we know exist.   The dualism part is the spiritual aspect of humans which is stored information and information processing carried out by the neural network of the brain.  

Every physical object in this universe consists of a combination of Quarks, Bosons, or Leptons. These are a consequense of the physical laws and our bodies are all made out of the same stuff. This is the 'body' that I believe the Bible is referring to. Information is how these particle types are organized. This is the dual part body and spirit.  The human neural network is rich in information and constantly reorganizes its information as we go through life. It is an information processor of the highest degree.  Its our information included in this information network that makes us who we are, free will and the consequences that go with it are part of that information processing and its reorganization that happens in our brain. God is not hiding anywhere, He is separate, He is outside of our dimensions saving a place in His world for those loyal and obedient children He has preselected. He can control our universe, create it, or make it evaporate from His world as the need arises. I believe He does this by introducing information at any when or place within our world using interdimensional forces that control the particle patterns or energy distribution (information) in our universe. I can't prove this or test it, so it is unscientific by its nature. I never claimed it to be scientific.   These forces are outside of our dimensions as they must be for our Creator.   But based on what I know about atomic physics and the Big Bang, the concept can't be too far off. During the Big Bang the finite energy to make our universe, physical laws and constants in those laws had to be extremely well organized or fine tuned by external forces to get that information virtually perfect, otherwise we wouldn't be here. That's what scientific analysis of the Big Bang has shown us.         

Your view brings in the unmeasurable and the mystical. How can you claim they're equivalent.   Quantum electro-dynamic fields are measurable and real. The only part of my dualistic information/ neural network mind hypothesis that hasn't been explained in detail is the physical mechanism for holistic operation of millions of neurons acting together in thought.  Presently, this is being investigated as non-localized molecular quantum field network. Exploration of this is underway with progress being made in quantum computation and bosonic condensates. This is not based on new physical forces and fields but based on growth in knowledge on how existing complex quantum fields operate and the interactions of the distributed fields in a network of atoms. This is hard science based on existing fixed laws. You can read articles in science journals about the research and progress made in this area of science. Don't bet the farm that some kid won't solve this challenge. When he does, what will you do? Claim he can't be right. Apologize and retract your dualistic spiritual  force hypothesis of the mind. Take your credibility hit quietly but postulate a new force hypothesis for spirit possession but not for human mind operation. Depending on the GAP to promote spiritual mystical hypotheses is very dangerous for Christianity if either of the two hypotheses that I started with turn out to be true.         

Information is a well understood mathematical theory. The physical laws are fairly well understood but not completely integrated together yet. Our existing math models of them are good to many decimal places.  The existing knowledge we have allows us to probe atomic structures within the cell all the way to distant space time events occuring just after the Big Bang. This same knowledge demonstrates that animals changed form and function over long periods of time. It tells us how special the earth is and all of Creation. Atheists even have to invent new eternal machines like the one generating chaotic eternal inflation to make a multiverse to explain how special this one is with it's four laws of physics that includes biological life and humans. We have a good thing going here now with science behind us. Let's not blow our fragile Christian credibility with the secular world by claiming new mystical unmeasurable spiritual forces exist. Destroying our fragile credibility seems to me to be the real danger here.  Conjectured new spiritual forces seem to me to be the real danger.  They are unnecessary to explain information and information processing by the brain using neural networks built by cells. We know these things exist and provide a rational explanation for human thought. A imaginary new and unmeasurable force goes too far to explain thought in humans.  If you believe that humans alone have a special spiritual force that allows them think, please explain how wolves stalk, communicate, and hunt prey using natural forces. You didn't respond last time so let me ask again.   Or does this new force apply to mammals as well?  

When someone puts their faith in what religious leaders say (like the human mind operates using an spiritual force beyond nature) then later some researchers discover the natural mechanism that makes all those individual neurons firings operate holistically, the atheists chuckle and the Christian masses go into confused shock and denial that the real answer was found. Once again credibility is damaged and Satan wins the battle. The Christians who promoted this incorrect view contributed to the erosion of credibility of Christianity. That to me is the greatest danger!  Why fight these losing battles of the GAP and continue to lose our credibility? 

The Bible never states that the mind operates on a different form of spiritual energy or forces, your imagination and other teachings have led you to this belief. All it said is that we are body and spirit, the rest was made up into Christian dogma tying it to spiritual forces by well intended scholars centuries long ago.  Information processing by the brain's neural network provides a perfectly natural means for the dualism in humans (as well as other mammals I might add). Spiritualism is a higher level of thought as I explained previously and includes imagination and understanding of abstract ideas like God and mathematics. New brain structures may be needed, more interconnects may be needed, more cells may be needed but new forces in nature, I really doubt it and so do most people that have intensively studied neurophysiology. Your heading for another snare that Satan has set for Christians traveling along that path.     

Spiritual possessions do not require new forces of nature, just another set of information operating on the existing networks of the victims body.  For simplicity think of it like a computer virus that infects your PC and takes over operations.   This seems very similar to me to people that have experienced multiple personality disorders. All the information resides in the brain with one set or another taking control of the body.  Or do you think that there are multiple spiritual forces constituting each personality that the person assumes? Do you think there were thousands of individual spiritual forces in Legion or just one spiritual force that all the demons occupied collectively in Legion that Jesus moved into the pigs nearby? The final question is does each individual thinking animal have it's very own spiritual force so that their are billions of new forces to discover controlling a world full of material bodies?
             
Another remark that was not quite summarized correctly about my belief: 
[Stu]-'As I understand your view, God is behind the scenes manipulating the "information" to control the physical laws of the universe -- correct?'

You make Him sound so corrupt when you describe the concept that way as 'manipulating' the information, but basically yes and very infrequently when the Creation needed a correction or miracle. Remember, the future is already known, so effectively all of His manipulations already occurred or are preknown based on the tense you used. 

[Stu]- There is nothing scientific about that theory. How could it ever be falsified? It is as much a statement of faith as mine ( God is a "Mind" who controls). Your proposition just "hides" the Creator from direct criticism with scientific words that can't be challenged (like "information processing"). Do you really want that kind of obfuscation?'

I agree with your first three sentences. I have never said that my belief that God manipulates the quantum states of matter is testable. It is faith that this is based upon. Objects in this universe are blocked from observing in their quantum world states, that is a fact of science. We will never know them in this world.   God is not limited from knowing or controlling the quantum states however, this is my belief. 

I don't understand why you threw 'information processing' and 'obfuscation' into the paragraph. Please explain your issue better here.  How is your unexplained hypothesis of an unmeasurable force guiding bodily operations any less of an obfuscation.  

[Stu]- 'The worse result of not dealing directly with "the Gap" is that it confuses Christians -- particularly the young people. They start thinking they too can have it both ways -- like Biologos -- which I consider a danger in the Church.'

I think we have a fundamental discord related to nature after reading this last remark. You seem to want or demand a partially unknowable reality to make an appeal to spirit forces and mystical influences precipitated by God. I, on the other extreme, as I stated up front, believe God to be more knowable and informative toward his children by providing an understandable universe with decipherable laws and constants of physics. Science is proving me right and you wrong year after year, century by century.  The beauty of God's creation is that you can have it both ways. All you have to do is trust that He made Nature just as he needed it to be and believe that God put scientists on the pathway ('test everything, hold on to the good') to discover its amazing characteristics that glorifies Him.  The only thing in danger is religious dogma and those that spread it without testing it in the light of what good science has illuminated for us. I am happy for young people that learn about GAPs in scientific understanding as well as what the Bible has to say on the various topics that are incomplete. That lack of understanding drives them to learn more about the subject to discover more truth about nature and about God. Many great scientists have been motivated by the GAP over the centuries to figure out the truth about how His wonderous creation really operates. Newton's theory of gravity and its relation to planetary motion is but one example. Today at LHC they look for the 'God' particle that invoked the appropriate masses to each subatomic particle type. I'm sure there are many that hope and pray that science will stop making new discoveries since they continue to undermine dogma they have bought into. Unfortunately, for them, God wants them to learn the truths of nature one way or another. They may not realize it yet, but they will eventually have to learn how everything works as a child of God, no incorrigable attitudes about this allowed. The imageo Deo wants to be like God, guess what they get to do!
The fact that God makes the universe discoverable by us is a great blessing to us. Why do you not want the GAP to be closed by scientific discovery? It is one of God's great gifts to Adam and Eve when they wanted to be like their Father. Knowledge is power, it has great value, and makes our lives easier. God knows this and that is why He has blessed us with this capability and opportunity to learn it. 

 Confusion results from things we are told to be true and then surface inconsistencies when tested in the real world. It is a truth crisis of the mind.  Your unfounded hypothesis of spiritual forces makes me confused, because you claim these spiritual forces drive the body but you also claim these forces can't be measured even though they must interact at least with the electro-magnetic force to have an effect on the body. If you have a force interacting with another force you should be able to measure it. Please explain, this is really confusing.     

And in your latest post:

[Stu]- 'Although I respect Lee's continuing attempt to inject God into these monistic theories, the best he can do is have God play some behind the scenes role, reprogramming natural laws. That is a very unsatisfying compromise and, as pointed out by Bret, more deistic than theistic.'

I have probably said too much already so I will make this last point very succinct. Your Spiritual Force hypothesis is just as much behind the scenes as my information control by God hypothesis which I claim as a belief. Neither can be measured or observed directly. However, information and information processing can be measured and we know it exists. Our minds crave information and operate on it 24/7. Who knows if spiritual energy exists or not? Who can describe it? Who can measure it? No-one, but I would love to be enlightened with the details. 

Lee