Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

Let's separate the Meat from the Potatoes in the Stu (stew)?
Bret has God changing the laws of physics from time to time without explanation, and has a great distrust of science.
Again ... this claim that my view has God fooling around with the Laws of Physics
is just patiently FALSE !!!
Like I stated before ... God is Extra (or Hyper) Dimensional !!!
We don't & won't have ANY clue to how this works ... until we are in His presence!
I'm sure that we could someday find all the Gravitons & Higgs Bosons to fill our
hearts content ... but still won't have even scratched the surface of how God really
works from our myopic perspective!
This is NOT a Scientific copout ...
It's actually a DEEPER and FULLER understanding about who God is & how He works!
It is one thing to try and understand the Creation ...
but trying to fully understand the Creator scientifically is just a Fools Folly !!!
Which brings me to my "great distrust" of Science!
Actually ... I LOVE Science !!!
Good Science !!!
REAL Science !!!
Science has its limitations!
"Science is NOT Truth!" ... as stated by Dallas Willard.
Karl Popper was a master of exposing this Fact!
Back when Scientist were basically all rich Aristocrats doing research
driven by their own passions & motives ... Science was PURE and HONEST !!!
The day that Darwin turned Science into a propaganda machine
for Atheism ... was the beginning of the end of TRUSTWORTHY Science!
Much Skepticism & Scrutiny is now REQUIRED to weed out the
Facts from the Fiction ... and even the outright FANTASY !!!
CASH, POLITICS, & Secular PHILOSOPHY are the driving forces
behind Science these days ... NOT the search for TRUTH !!!
Sorry Lee!
But that's reality.
Science is NOT to blame!
It's the Scientists that I have a "Great Distrust" of!
More rants to follow ...

Bret*

HUMOR!
Down-right ... Honest to God ... actual attempts at HUMOR!
I LOVE IT !!!
It's about time that we can ALL joke around a little ...
& YES ... even throw a couple soft-elbows into another
Brother's "Created" ribs!
i.e.
Hmmmmmmm, I do often wear a straw hat--don't smoke a corncob pipe or play a banjo--but I play a ukulele and a harmonica (not at the same time). Does that characterize me as an Old Earther??
Actually Don ... if you play your Harmonica or Ukulele while wearing your Straw Hat .......
you're just a couple shots of Moonshine away from becoming the poster-boy for Young-Earth Creationists!
&
So Bret, put that in your corn cobb pipe and smoke it! And strum us some foggy mountain breakdown while you're at it!
Sorry Dave ... NO bong hits for me! ... I'm driving this Blog!
KEEP IT UP GUYS !!!
Yes! ... Facts & Fun are compatible with God's Word!

p.s. Hey Don ... can you play "Little Grass Shack"?


Bret*

Bret,

You said:

This would have to be an amazing amount of water ... right?
If the waters had already receded to reveal the Dry land on Day-3 ...
where did this Water Canopy go to on Day-4 ???
Just Curious?

That's a very good question! God destroyed the Earth with water from the canopy, and I personally believe it was still there after day 4, but...I believe he somehow changed its nature to reveal the celestial bodies at that time. Once again, the word in Hebrew is not bara for the "creation" of these governing lights.

Admittedly, I have no solid evidence for this theory, but then again, the young earth crowd here has no theories for how anything is really happening scientifically except to say "God did it". Well, certainly, God did it indeed, but we need to be proposing answers that are consistent with what we observe AND Scripture which, as I have been saying here ad nauseum, my positions are consistent with a literal read and do not require the redefinition of words.

So Bret, put that in your corn cobb pipe and smoke it! And strum us some foggy mountain breakdown while you're at it!

Welcome Back Dave!
(You still owe me an answer about Day*4*?)
Great Article!
I'll reserve any criticism about the Scientific
credibility of this NEW "Theory" for my Good
Friend Lee!
But! ... just the fact that Cosmologists feel
the need to keep proposing NEW Theories
to TRY and fill the HUGE & seemingly ENDLESS
list of HOLES, FLAWS, and mathematical
INEQUITIES in the Naturalistic "Big Fizzle"
Theory speaks VOLUMES to me about how
much weight should be given to the CLAIMS
made about the Universe using this Foundation!
It is at this point ... that I hand the baton
over to NEW Theory Critic ... "Lee" !!!

Bret*

This is very interesting...

One last thing. It appears the same coincidence applies to this wave as before; that we are either near or at the center of the universe...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/bigwavetheoryoffersalternativetodarkenergy

What do you guys make of this?

Dave

Hi Bret,

Hmmmmmmm, I do often wear a straw hat--don't smoke a corncob pipe or play a banjo--but I play a ukulele and a harmonica (not at the same time). Does that characterize me as an Old Earther??

Thanks for clarifying your views. I agree with much of what you have to say. God can indeed do whatever he wants to do. But the question, it seems to me, is not what God CAN do but what He DID/DOES do. And that's where we differ (besides the wearing of a straw hat!). I am finding the evidence for an old earth hard to ignore and which is still in harmony with scripture.

Nice to get acquainted!

--Don

Let me just start off by saying WOW!
It's GREAT to see so much action going on the 101 this weekend!
Don ... welcome to the Creationist Punchbowl.
Just so you know? Not ALL of us Young-Earth Creationists are Snake-handlers!
Stu & the rest of the Crew will vouch for me ...
that I don't wear a Straw-hat, smoke a Corncob-pipe, or play the Banjo!
(as far as they know?)
After Lee tossed Stu & I under the Bus ...
Then Stu tossed Lee & I under the Bus ...
Then Stu backed the Bus over me one more time (for good measure)!
I thought maybe I should dust myself off ... and explain (in MY own words)...
what I have been clearly saying ... but no one seems able to glean!
God Created the Fixed Laws of the Universe!
He MUST have locked them into place before the close of Creation Day-6!
The Universe & ALL that it contains are ALWAYS subject to these Laws!
God is NOT contained within the Universe ... or by ANYTHING!
God can do ANYTHING He wants, wherever He wants, whenever He wants,
anyway He wants, without changing or suspending ANY of the Laws that govern "US"... !!!
I NEVER SAID THAT GOD JUST DOES THINGS "WILLIE NILLIE" !!!
Let me try to explain it this way ...
Our Universe is like the Internet.
The Fixed Laws are like HTML code!
"We" must follow the rules of this code to exist on the Web!
God enters our Universe like a FLASH program!
His BETTER, SMOOTHER, & COOLER code runs right on top of "Our" existing HTML code!
Not NEW Laws! ... just different ones that can deliver the goods without crashing "Our" Laws!
Yeah! ... God CAN do that!
PLEASE! ... quit trying to put God in a BOX!
I will try to clarify the rest of my Bad-Press coverage in my next Post!
Also coming soon:
*** Creation Day #2 ... making sense of this mystery in REAL time! ***
*** Tape #3 Astronomer Hugh Ross ... now we're getting somewhere! ***
*** How to survive multiple Bus accidents ... without becoming bitter! ***
God Bless for now ...

Bret*

Don - good catch. Correct -- what I meant is that what we are observing today is, as you said it, "what has taken place light years in the past." We are seeing today those cosmic events as they were happening then but have every reason to believe those same laws of nature are continuing today.

Thank you for the confidence you have in my posts, but please know that I too am just a novice at this stuff. My motivation is not to be right but to learn from one another so that together we can become a united witness to the world that "In the beginning God created." I am very anxious to discover the collective thinking of our Group, especially in those areas (like big bang cosmology) where we so radically disagree.

I understand that you are Esther's, and Lee's, brother in law and live in San Jose. It's great to have you participating and I hope to be able to meet you in person some time!

Stu

Stu -- I think you are so "right on" in your most recent post (as always). I have a question about something you said about all Christian astronomers see star formation happening "today." Isn't it true (from an OE perspective anway) that what astronomers see "today" is actually what has taken place light years in the past? I suspect that is what you meant, which means that we actually cannot "observe" what is happening in stellar space right now. Is that correct or am I just confused?

--Don

I respect your stand against "evolution" and basically agree with you when it means "Darwinian ____," or "biological macro ____," or "chemical _____" (pre-biotic soup type). However, I am taken back by your statement above. Aren't you throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

The term "evolution" is not a dirty word. In its generic sense it simply means "change over time" -- a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage, especially to a more advanced or mature one. Obviously you believe in "evolution" by that definition. But not just the types I mention above, correct? However, you've added to my list "stellar and planetary evolution." There we part company.

I can't prove big bang cosmology -- it's just a scientific theory. But it is very well-founded on direct observation and experimentation, and highly developed principles of physics, chemistry and mathematics. It does not contradict the Bible (as you know I even think it reconciles with it). And in my view it adds to the awe and splendor of the creation account and to the glory of God.

It's you privilege not to believe what astronomers observe when they look through their telescopes, but I think you take away from your credibility when you dismiss their conclusions with a "I don't believe it in spite of what you observe." That sounds like what the church mistakenly said to Galileo.

What astronomers see is not an illusion. They see stars dying, supernovae exploding, and intergalactic gases starting to form stars and planets, etc. If you don't believe in stellar and planetary formation, what is your explanation for what they are observing?

Stu

P.S. I agree with you about "EXPELLED, No Intelligence Allowed." I also loved the movie, give it a 5-Star Rating, and in fact own a copy. I also love that it connects our common cause to the Discovery Institute which I have the highest respect for and financially support. I don't know of any Fellow at the Discovery Institute who does not believe in stellar and planetary evolution. Perhaps you do and I'm missing something. In fact, I'd be interested to know of any Christian astronomer who disagrees that star formation is happening today and what their arguments are. I'm open to re-evaluating.

Lee and Bret -- it seems to me that both of you are creating extreme (though opposite) cases for understanding God's miracles and natural law. At the risk of oversimplifying, Lee seems to have a deterministic view of the creation (everything predetermined by God and built into natural law at the instant of creation). Bret has God changing the laws of physics from time to time without explanation, and has a great distrust of science.

Although I find points of agreement with both: With Lee --God immutability. With Bret -- God's power to change the laws of physics (He did so by creating everything out of nothing, and will again by creating a new heaven and new earth.) But He does not change them capriciously in-between nor without comment.

I think neither of your cases represent the balance the Scripture teaches.

Lee -- Jer 33:26 says God won't abandon the natural laws. It doesn't say he won't intervene, or make a supernatural exception to the regular course of the natural world.

Bret - God occasionally intervenes with the natural order in unpredictable ways, but only for very specific reasons which He is clear about. God's immutability and being devoid of capriciousness is a fundamental doctrine of His nature.

The specific reasons God gives for His miracles include:

• To confirm His Word -- the "truth claims" of the Bible (Moses in Exodus 4:1-9); Jesus (Mark 2:9-12; John 10:37-38); the apostles commission (Heb 2:3, 4);

• To validate who Jesus is by His resurrection (1 Cor 15:13-19)

• To distinguish true prophets from false prophets (Deu 18:15-22)

• To interact with His creatures -- to save, heal, restore, bring back to life, communicate His will, answer our prayers, comfort, provide, etc. (practically every page of the Bible).

Otherwise throughout Scripture:

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
there is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
as Thou hast been thou forever will be.
Great is thy faithfulness! Great is thy faithfulness!

Stu ...

I'm glad to hear you say that we don't actually know everything
about everything ... when it comes to how this Universe works!
This has been my point all along about putting "known" Science
on an equal scale with the Complete Flawless Finished Word of God!
God knows EVERYTHING!
Man knows virtually NOTHING in comparison!
Mathematically ... even if we knew a Billion Facts about the Universe ...
then divide that by God's "Infinite" knowledge you'll end up with "0" !!!
Or ... more accurately ... you get an irrational answer!
It is irrational for Man to ever think he can quantize the Glory of the Creator!
Is it wrong for us to try?
No!
What's wrong ... is when we hold "Our" knowledge on an even plain
with He who Created "ALL" knowledge!
To answer your question ...
I don't believe in ANY kind of Evolution!
(including Stellar & Planetary)
I do believe in environmental adaptation within Created Gnomic "Kind"!
(which is often mistaken as "Micro" Evolution)
Stu ... watch "Expelled" again! (Please!)
See what WE are ALL up against!
I do have an honest question for you (or Lee if you're not sure)?
When you say that Stars & Planets are "still" forming ...
do you mean right now (like Today?)... or are you guys saying
that New Stars (& Planets)... are just now becoming visible to us
here on Earth ... do to the lagging speed of light issue?
Please clarify this for me ... if you don't mind?
God Bless ...

Bret*

Bret -- It seems to me the article you posted is an honest statement regarding our current state of knowledge of cosmology. There are, and will continue to be, a myriad of unknowns.

I take it you don't believe that the stars and planets form (are forming) as a result of natural laws -- is that correct? If so, what is your understanding on the matter?

Stu and Bret:

Thankyou for your comments. Stu, great summary and personal perspective on this topic. Bret, thanks for finding the other complementary passage on fixed laws in Job! I will definitely refer to it in the future at times.  

If I had to guess from your feedback and earlier commentary, I would guess that Bret would take the view that God's laws were not fixed during Creation Week nor are they fixed throughout mankind's history. It sounds like you are claiming that they are fixed most of the time but on a regular basis God modifies the laws to accomplish His will  i.e. during the miracles of the old testament and to control events happening today. 
 
While I would guess that Stu would claim that God fixed the laws at the initial instant of Creation and leaves them fixed except during miracles  i.e. just ones requiring law modification such as some of special miracles described in the Bible. Otherwise the universe operates autonomously in the direction that God predetermined that leads to the conqest of evil. 

I believe however that both of these concepts are in error and that God would not create laws that He would have to change at various times throughout history. I believe that God made a covenant with them because they are precisely what He needs to control his Creation. 

Now we have all come to the critical fundamental question of the debate for several of our topics:  age, evolution, miracles, and predetermination /prophecy.  Does God have the ability to 1) control His Creation through His Laws or 2) does He need to change them periodically or 3) does He work around them because He can't change them without destroying His Creation? Although some atheists may believe 3) is true I will not consider this possibility because it eliminates God's omnipotence and cannot be acceptable in the Christian faith. 

So in my next few posts I will be focusing on a few key aspects of this: time manipulation, matter manipulation and conveying information between His set of dimensions and ours. These topics are critical in performing miracles within the laws of physics and hopefully (if I can explain these well enough) will provide you a convincing argument in support of using the laws He created instead of changing them. If I can, this may provide you a new perspective which cuts through our deadlock on the earth's age and evolution. I hope to give you a new perspective on the value of the physical laws and increase your faith and praise of God's genius! Get your thinking caps on; 'It's About Time' is coming soon. 

Lee            

Thought this was interesting!

For TWO reasons!
The actual content of the article.
& The amount of absolution stated therein !!!

Bret*

**********************************

Newfound Planet Orbits Backward

SPACE.com – Wed Aug 12, 11:21 am ET
Updated 11:05 a.m. ET

Planets orbit stars in the same direction that the stars rotate. They all do. Except one.
A newfound planet orbits the wrong way, backward compared to the rotation of its host star. Its discoverers think a near-collision may have created the retrograde orbit, as it is called.
The star and its planet, WASP-17, are about 1,000 light-years away. The setup was found by the UK's Wide Area Search for Planets (WASP) project in collaboration with Geneva Observatory. The discovery was announced today but has not yet been published in a journal.
"I would have to say this is one of the strangest planets we know about," said Sara Seager, an astrophysicist at MIT who was not involved in the discovery.
What's going on
A star forms when a cloud of gas and dust collapses? Whatever movement the cloud had becomes intensified as it condenses, determining the rotational direction of the star. How planets form is less certain! They are, however, known to develop out of the leftover, typically disk-shaped mass of gas and dust that swirls around a newborn star, so whatever direction that material is moving, which is the direction of the star's rotation, becomes the direction of the planet's orbit.

WASP-17 likely had a close encounter with a larger planet, and the gravitational interaction acted like a slingshot to put WASP-17 on its odd course, the astronomers figure.
"I think it's extremely exciting. It's fascinating that we can study orbits of planets so far away," Seager told SPACE.com. "There's always theory, but there's nothing like an observation to really prove it."
Cosmic collisions are not uncommon. Earth's moon was made when our planet collided with a Mars-sized object, astronomers think? And earlier this week NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope found evidence of two planets colliding around a distant, young star. Some moons in our solar system are on retrograde orbits, perhaps at least in some cases because they were flying through space alone and then captured; that's thought to be the case with Neptune's large moon Triton.

The find was made by graduate students David Anderson at Keele University and Amaury Triaud of the Geneva Observatory.
Bloated world
WASP-17 is about half the mass of Jupiter but bloated to twice its size. "This planet is only as dense as expanded polystyrene, 70 times less dense than the planet we're standing on," said professor Coel Hellier of Keele University.
The bloated planet can be explained by a highly elliptical orbit, which brings it close to the star and then far away. Like exaggerated tides on Earth, the tidal effects on WASP-17 heat and stretch the planet, the researchers suggest.
The tides are not a daily affair, however. "Instead it's creating a huge amount of friction on the inside of the planet and generating a lot of energy, which might be making the planet big and puffy," Seager said.
WASP-17 is the 17th extrasolar planet found by the WASP project, which monitors hundreds of thousands of stars, watching for small dips in their light when a planet transits in front of them. NASA's Kepler space observatory is using the same technique to search for Earth-like worlds.

Titled as an Old-Earth/Old-Man Interpretation.
I must admit that I had never heard of Dr. Buswell before.
I'm guessing that he must have fallen off the Creationist
radar soon after this conference ... as I have made it my
obsession to seek out and learn from ALL that are willing to
speak out on this Topic for the last 20-years!
Needless to say ... I was excited to hear a new voice
(for me at least)... on the Topic.
Sadly ... after a good opening joke about Stu's introduction ...
he failed to raise anything new or exciting on the Topic.
He knows his Anthropology pretty well ... but nothing
different from reading a Richard Leakey book!
He doesn't seem to question ANY of the field's dogma!
My personal assessment was of an Anthropologist who
just happens to also be a Christian ... and not the converse.
He deflected any questions about his views aligning with
Scripture by claiming that he is not an expert on the Bible!
He claimed that there is NO evidence of a Worldwide Flood ...
as well as that there is NO discontinuity in the History of
Western Civilization for at least 12,000 years!
But ... offered NO proof of either claim!
Though it wasn't very clear ... he seem to imply that
God stepped into the Evolution of Hominids (at some point)
and added a Human-Soul/Spirit ... and called it "Adam"?
He struggled to answer almost every Question asked in
the Q&A session!
Needless to say ... I was NOT very impressed with his presentation.
Not so much because I disagree with his views ... as much as
I felt little confidence in his views ... even from himself!
4-hours down ... 8-hours left to go!
God forgive me ... if I was too disrespectful in my review?
The Crowd Favorite is NEXT !!!
Stay tuned!

Bret*

Keith:

I have been trying to respond to your earlier questions and issues from a technical perspective that shows why a one day expansion will not work using existing laws of physics. If God used different laws during the Creation Week then anything goes. In this case the laws of physics would need to change at some time. When did the physics change?  Depending when the change occured the universe would look different to our astronomers. If the change occurred 13.7 billion years ago the cosmos would look like we see it today. If the change occurred 6000 years ago a, we would see a very dark sky with a cosmic background temperature close to absolute zero. The starlight from all of the brilliantly shining stars in the heavens would not have reached us yet; they are too far away for the light produced within the past 6000 years to reach us yet. The light that was stretched during inflation would be at such a long wavelength that we would measure it using extra long antennas instead of antennas in the centimeter range used for the actual cosmic microwave background radiation or nanometer range for starlight that we do see.  The reason is that as space inflates so does the wavelength. If space inflates a trillion times as in  the YE scenario, light in the nano meter would stretch to thousands of meters in length and become extra long radio waves. Of course this is not what we see when we look out into space at our awesome heavens. We see greatly reduced red shifts than the YE scenario suggests that are in line with the old earth view of a 13.7 billion year old cosmos and stars coming into existance hundreds of millions of years after the instant of Creation. The greatest red shift we have seen for the most distant galaxy is about 6.43 not in the billions that stretching visible light across the universe would produce in one 24 hour day. I hope you can see  how irrational this rapid inflationary view is from this simple analysis of starlightlight stretching alone. Rapid inflation also presents a number of challenges impossible to resolve related to various structures that we see. When we see a nebula, how was it produced since a star didn't explode in the distant past tens of thousands of years earlier. Is the nebula just a mirage to make us think a star exploded. This adds a large amount of deception to the universe that I and many other scientists will absolutely reject because we believe it cannot be part of our Creator's character or allowed by the fixed laws of heaven and earth. Scientists would not bother wasting their time studying a universe that illogically flipped constants or acted irrationally and inconsistently. Fortunately we worship God who is logical, consistent, and doesn't like deception. Our universe reflects His character. Psalm 19 KJV seems most appropriate to end with this evening. 
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Lee

  

Lee ...

Here is the other verse that I mentioned to you.

Job 38:33 (New American Standard Bible)

33"Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?

I don't think ANY of us here doubt these Laws exist ...
and who was responsible for their implementation!
The debate lies in the following questions:

A). When did God set these Laws to autopilot?
&
B). Is God capable of exempting Himself from them?

Thoughts?


Bret*

Lee - thank you for pointing out this Scripture -- I never saw it before. God is telling Jeremiah that He would no more abandon Judah and Israel than He would abandon "His laws of night and day or of earth and sky!" Of course He fixed the laws of physics from the start -- anything less would make Him a capricious God -- like the gods of the animists, polytheists, and non-theists.

The Biblical worldview of God's immutability is a fundamental doctrine of the nature of God. His unchanging Being and promises maintain the distinction between "the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow" (James 1:17)and his creatures, who are continuing changing.

The unchanging nature of God is what gave birth to modern science in the Middle Ages. God's immutable Laws could be discovered, formulated and tested -- and yield consistent results over time. We were set free to discover the mind of God. And He invited us into a galactic universe in which to probe.

Like His laws of nature so are His immutable covenants (laws) with mankind. Without immutability we could never trust Him. But because of the immutability of both His physical laws and His moral laws -- we can know Him, trust Him, and grow to be like Him.

Je 33:25 in Other Bibles
This is not my favorite verse but one of a great number of verses that I love. The reason that I reference it so often is that there are so few verses in the Bible referring to physical law stability (I'm not aware of any other) and this factor is of fundamental relevence to this topic. 
I agree with your observation that that this set of verses is about God's relation to the Hebrew nation and this relationship will not change. I find it fascinating that God would compare this unchanging commitment to the Hebrew Nation to the physics of the universe and has made a covenent to not change these physical laws.

Several translation texts use the word 'covenant' regarding the relationship between day and night.  Covenant according to Webster means:   1: a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement : compact
2 a: a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action.

In the KJV version the phrase ' 25Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;' is used.  Ordinance, according to Webster means 1 a: an authoritative decree or direction : order b: a law set forth by a governmental authority ; specifically : a municipal regulation
2: something ordained or decreed by fate or a deity.  
I view this as God issuing a degree and ordaining the physical laws of the universe. If God has ordained it then how can they be changed.   
It is interesting that you have a slightly different understanding than the authors of the other Bibles in regard to the Hebrew text of Jeremiah.    Notice how the other authors all translate to 'the fixed laws' either 'governing' or 'of' ' heaven and earth' with the third saying 'fixed patterns of heaven and earth'. In each of these cases the word 'fixed' is used which means unchanging to me and most other people. When God uses 'covenant' it conveys the meaning of a formal promise as well.  I believe what God is stating here is that his relationship to the Hebrew nation is unchanging just like the physical laws of the universe. If you get a different meaning, please tell us your interpretation.   
 
New English Translation
 Je 33:24 - 26 states:
 24 You have surely noticed what these people are saying, haven't you? They are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two families of Israel and Judah that he chose.' So they have little regard that my people will ever again be a nation. 25 But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth. 26 Just as surely as I have done this, so surely will I never reject the descendants of Jacob. Nor will I ever refuse to choose one of my servant David's descendants to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Indeed, I will restore them and show mercy to them."

Jeremiah 33:24-26 (New International Version)

24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected the two kingdoms he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. 25 This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.' "

Jeremiah 33:24-26 (New American Standard Bible)

 24"Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the LORD chose, He has )rejected them'? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. 25"Thus says the LORD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, 26then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.'"

That's okay if you see this 'covenant" in the KJV in a slightly different way as long as we agree that the physical laws are unchanging with time and space dimensions. I think that you also agree that the only way for the physical laws to change is for God to change them. i.e. they don"t drift with time or vary across the universe as some atheists believe. If I understand your view correctly, God manipulated the physical laws during the creation week and then at the conclusion He established the present laws of physics that we have come to know. Please let me know if you believe this change in the laws of physics occurred over several days, after the first day or at the end of the sixth day.  

My belief is that He used the same laws that we have today from the initial creation instant through the present day. Many scientists have this same perspective that the physical laws don' t change with time or space. It is also my view that the scientific position is more representative of the Biblical text than the YE position because of Je 33:25 stating the physical laws are 'fixed' and He has ordained them as well as has a covenant with them.  

The endearing aspect of fixed laws is that 1) the universe has purpose and is worth studying. 2) The physical laws are a foundation that organic life can be built upon slowly into a Divine Creation (mankind).  3) The universe is not an illusion (as would be the YE version). 4) These laws permit God to interact, control the outcome, permit prophecy, and permit eternal fellowship between our resurrected spirits and God.   

Lee      

My wife is an avid 24-hour day proponent and I totally respect her view. To Gail the straight forward meaning of the text is that with absolute clarity God created the heavens and the earth in 6*24 hour periods of time. When she hears me talk about billions of years she sees that taking away from God's omnipotence (why would He take so long?). And when she hears my science-reconciling explanations, she mildly panics that I'm being "too intellectual" and perhaps not interpreting the Bible "literally." Mostly it concerns her that if she continues to engage me that we'll be on a "slippery slope" to a lack of literalism and able to make the Bible say anything we want it to. I understand, and assure her that she is to stay exactly where she is in her view of the creation account, but also not to worry that I'm "slipping away."

After all if she were trying to understand how torque to the wheels in her car was thermodynamically created within the cylinder of her engine she would be equally bemused. All she really needs to understand to drive is that the wheels rotate and they make the car move. But for the engine designer it is imperative to understand the technicalities and reconcile it to the car's motion.

The loudest argument I hear against the OE interpretation is that 6*24 hour days is the "clear literal meaning of the text for everyone to see and understand." But that supposed clarity isn't there for me. And as I have written in my last post, it wasn't that clear to many other Christians throughout the ages. Somehow because I'm looking at the text through glasses (background) other than that of the "common man," or not through Ussher's commentary, I am judged by others to have it wrong. This judgment is by man not God and in its virulent form says that OEers are bringing liberalism, even heresy into the Church.

Can't we imagine God's Word as so sharp and two-edged that it is able to talk to both the common man (the car driver) AND to the scientist (engine designer)? Certainly there are many more drivers than designers, but isn't God's Kingdom big enough for, and in need of, both? When I read the creation account with the Big Bang in mind, God's magnificence is magnified. When I see Him creating time and the universe out of nothing in the Big Bang I am in absolute awe. Someone actually created the laws of physics in an instant with the inherent ability to craft a universe over billions of years just to accommodate His prized creation -- humankind. When I think that God tuned these physical laws to one part in 10^500 or the universe would fail to exist, I am overcome with the wonder of God and His care and love for human life. My reading and reflecting becomes an act of worship.

When I hear "slippery slope" into liberalism arguments, I think just the opposite. The fact that God's Word and His creation is reconcilable gives me all the more confidence in His Word and shows how pithy other holy books are. Instead of a slippery slope it yields the exact opposite -- traction for witnessing, confidence for discipling, and an imposing awe of God and His creation.

As I've previously noted, my goal is not to change another Christian's position on the matter; even though I think the OE interpretation is of more value in penetrating our culture with a Biblical worldview. Wherever you are on the matter, stay there unless the Holy Spirit tells you otherwise. However, realize that neither you nor I really understand "how" God created, so please allow Him to talk to me (and others) the way He does, and I'll do the same for you. Let's respect and enrich one another. I have no fear of you being on the right track, and you should have no fear of me. Instead let us imagine how wonderful it will be in heaven when we both can attend the creation presentation at the local planetarium.

My main interest as an OEer is to see non-believers come to Christ without the YE issue being a stumbling block. When non-Christians have the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit then they too will have the privilege and joy of coming to their own conclusions. For Christians, I desire us to show grace to one another as a watching world makes more of a judgment about our faith by seeing how we treat one another, than by what we say.



The Bible is written for any person no matter what their schooling, intelligence, geography, socio-economic condition, etc. What I love about the Bible is that it is written to encourage us to plunge its depths to test all things (I Thess 5:21); to come reason over it with God (Is 1:18); and to come study God's creation which brings Him glory (Ps 19:1-4; Rom 1:20).

Surveys have shown that 50% of the American public don't know how long it takes for the earth to orbit the sun. Because they don't know this scientific fact doesn't make one any less of a Christian. Similarly, those of us who know the scientific facts about the rotation of the earth and how that produces night and day are no better Christians than those who don't understand it; but we are no less Christians either when the we call into question Biblical interpretations that conflict with observed facts. (Remember Galileo being condemned by the Church for his views based on his observation that the earth went around the sun.) Maybe our scientific interpretation is wrong, or perhaps our Biblical interpretation is wrong -- both are done by error prone men. But God doesn't lie and God doesn't deceive so those of us with scientific curiosity will always "test all things (Word and creation) and hold fast to that which is true" (I Thess 5:21).

When God's Book of Scripture and His Book of Nature cannot be reasoned together, or either side becomes dogmatic, then inquiry shuts down and prideful man takes over to achieve political victory. That is not God's way (discovering that was an important stage for me in becoming a Christian). God created me and my world and set me about the business of uncovering it so I can discover the Creator and tell others about Him. What a joy!

Dave ...

You Posted: Yes, I do believe the expanse wasn't just water vapor. I believe there was a water canopy above the earth. What this means isn't clear and either of us can speculate, so it is subject to honest interpretation (and honest disagreement) to characterize the expanse one way or another. I believe it is most likely (or at least possible) that the great lights and the stars were hidden from view until day 4. After day 4 they were visible from Earth.

This would have to be an amazing amount of water ... right?
If the waters had already receded to reveal the Dry land on Day-3 ...
where did this Water Canopy go to on Day-4 ???
Just Curious?


Bret*

Well .......
If starting out this Conference in low gear
was the objective? ... then Dallas hit a homer!
Brilliant BRILLIANT man !!!
Life of the party?
Less than thrilling presentation aside ...
he did make a few GOOD statements of Fact!
Science is NOT Truth!
Especially since the dominate intrusion and
influence of Government Grants !!!
He also stated that the Scriptures were NOT
100% irrefutably clear about the Creation
account! (O.K. let's say 99% then?)
And finally ... he points out that when you
have opposing views about the same Topic
that ONLY one (or none) of them can be TRUE!
2-hours down ... 10-hours left to go!
God be with me!

Bret*

Lee,

Congratulations on the most scientific and deepest post to date! (at least since I've been on the thread). Do you think this might be a bit technical for most of the layman here? I did manage to get through it all, but I just hope we don't lose any more people that feel overwhelmed by this technical savvy?

While you addressed the speed of light issue quite thoroughly (and brilliantly I might add), I agree from a scientific standpoint that a variance creates many issues...but I agree with Bret that if God wanted to do this He would not be constrained by the laws of physics. I believe I addressed this in my earlier posts about Joshua's Long Day when the earth stood still, Jesus' visit to the disciples in his glorified body, etc. There are countless other examples in scripture where God 'violated' His own "laws" such as Jesus & Peter walking on water, the three witnesses in the fiery furnace, the Ascension, etc.

Perhaps a better explanation is the one I keep going back to about the HEAVENS BEING STRETCHED out. If God stretched the heavens during initial creation, it would:

1) not create a problem with the speed of light, C could be constant
2) account for distant starlight visible from earth, from day one and current day
3) account for vast distances, millions and billions of light years, and its equivalent in apparent earth years
4) account for the red shift & Doppler effect
5) provide evidence for an expanding universe today
6) include a great explanation for a YOUNG UNIVERSE that is 100% compatible with scripture, without twisting science or the bible

I figured six points about this was plenty, just like six days was...

Until our next cup of joe,
Keith

Here are my questions:
1) Since light is a short range of wavelenghts of electro-magnetic energy, how can you say God created light after he already used electro-magnetic energy in bringing space-time and the earth into existance?
You're RIGHT ... but for the wrong reason!
I'm glad to see that at least you (Lee) are paying attention!
God did NOT Create the light ... He Created the Darkness! (Isa 45:7)
God Himself is the Light !!!

2) Since the earth wasn't spinning relative to the sun (because it didn't exist yet), what separated light from darkness. What caused the dark and light periods to be exactly 24 hours?
God!

3) Was the source of the luminous light God? Did God turn off His lights every 24 hours on days two and three until the sun appeared?
Believe it or not ... God can actually control when, where, & how His Light shines!
But ... I don't believe He ever shuts down His FULL Glory!

4) If the source of the energy was the Holy Spirit and all of the energy that made the universe emanated from Him, did He stretch throughout the cosmos in an instant and make all matter and energy appear simultaneous at every location across 13.7 billion light years of space time? Or is the cosmos smaller and only 6000 years old?
Stretch God? ... to fill the Cosmos? (you're kidding ... right?)
God measures the entire Cosmos with the Span of His Hand !!! (Isa 40:12)
Are we talking about the same God?

5) Are the stars that look farther away than 6000 light years really there or are we just seeing photons created in space by the Holy Spirit?
They're there!

6) If the matrix of information was materialized from electromagnetic and gravitational energy by the Holy Spirit, are you claiming a new set of physics were used to do this or were the physical laws the same as we experience in our modern day?
Please READ my previous Post that addresses your favorite Verse!

NEXT!


Bret*