Earthage 101
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Earthage 101

A creationist forum to discuss how old the Earth is...All about how God may have done it. No argument whether God did it. We all believe he did.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

+7
InfinitLee
Rob
flyin2orion
BrokenMan
stu
lordfry
Admin
11 posters

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 16 ... 29, 30, 31 ... 35 ... 40  Next

Go down  Message [Page 30 of 40]

726Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Happy New Year**13700006010** Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:12 am

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

I read 2 Peter 3 in it's entirety and I couldn't find any reason not to believe what Peter tells me in 3:8. Maybe someone can spell it out for me why those following verses totally nullify what Peter clearly states in 3:8.

Bret & Stu,
I think you may have truncated a few digits off the front ends of your posts recently as to the correct date unless you were meaning to show your acceptance finally of the old age of the universe where you were counting in 2,279 millenium increments.
Thanks for your willingness to move forward to rational discussion. We have spent way too much time splitting hairs on the meaning of verses which can be read to support either an old or YE view. Instead we move toward a glorius new challenge together: the destruction of atheist dogma and their view that random unknown and unpredictable processs control God's Creation. I would love to get someone's specific critque against Darwin's process for evolving new species. Where was he wrong specifically and why?

Brother Lee

727Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Lord have mercy on us. Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:04 am

sumiala

sumiala

Right,
am really frustrated. (so be forgiving if this comes accross quite bluntly and remember I am Dutch, i.e. direct)

Just got an email from a guy over here claiming to perform exegesis, and yet his view is completely built upon "scientific" input.


And then I see Lee using the good old 2 Peter 3:8, which is written in Greek to explain a Hebrew word yom.
Fortunately I don't need my Dutch to explain your illogical language comparisons.


And Stu is claiming he is reading in context of Genesis 2:4 comparing it with 1 Tim. 4:4.


I mean, what the hack is going on here guys?
Don't you see the blatant inconsistencies with this.

PS Lee, read the next part of the verse please and see that it cancels your statement out completely. I.e. read the context and not only the bit that suits you.


I will now have to answer this Scot over here, and then will have to come back and show how the Bible can only mean what it says it means.
If it does not, then why should I take any of your postings for what you mean.
If I can make your posts to mean what I want them to mean, then there is no argument because everybody would agree with the Bible (I was going to write "me" here, but then would have to argue that I don't put myself above Scripture)

728Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty *** It's a DEAL !!! *** Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:30 am

lordfry

lordfry

I'm on board !!!
I will join arms with my Brothers who prefer
alternative (yet somewhat tortured) translations
of God's Word ... in a joint effort to ...
DESTROY DARWINISM !!!
Sorry Lee!
Here comes the Bus! Arrow
Let's make the "E"-word ... the New "F"-word
in the modern Christian lexicon !!!

Bret* 2010

729Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty HAPPY 6010 2U2 Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:32 pm

stu

stu

I hope we can move on now Arrow

In 6010 I would like to --
-- spend time refuting Brother Lee's claim for theistic evolution.
-- And team with my YE, OE and TE brothers to defeat Darwinism.

I even will use emoticons if that's what it will take bounce

Anyone else game for that Question

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

730Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty ***H*A*P*P*Y***N*E*W***Y*E*A*R*** Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:36 pm

lordfry

lordfry

*** 6010 ***
Years since the Creation of ALL things!
(+/- a Fortnight!) Wink

The TRUTH will set YOU free !!! I love you


Bret*

731Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Help! Someone Please Splain! Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:19 am

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

Thanks Stu, you did a nice job responding to Lucien's specific claims that seem so contrived and undully complex to me as he tries to make a case for a young earth that's based on several contestable assumptions and speculations. 

 It seems a lot like trying to get the Bible to support a preconceived notion of how something should be, instead of just reading the Bible and accepting what it states literally. 

I don't understand how there can be any question on the age of the earth anymore after researching this topic. God made Creation in six of His DAYS. Saint Peter tells us literally that God's days are like 365,000 times longer than man's days (24 hours) in 2 Peter 3:8. Consequently, God's DAYS are not 24 hours.   

Why won't people accept what Peter states clearly?  Is there another place in the Bible that I have overlooked were it states God's days are only 24 hours?  Do they not like this fact that God's days are so much longer than ours?  Do they think Peter was incorrect or the words were mistranslated from Greek?  What am I missing here that overrides what Peter clearly states?  Is there something about the context around this passage that allows the Lord to have His DAYS be just 24 hours?

As a side note, I am really sad that Christmas is over. Hopefully, you will cheer me up with your response. What would really make me happy is for all of the YEs to accept the fact that the earth is reeeeally old as the Bible states so that we can get on with the real debate, that Creation is or is not based on random chance. 

Brother Lee Laughing

732Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty My OE answers to the 6 YE Questions Fri Dec 25, 2009 3:11 am

stu

stu

I join with Bret and Lee in wishing you all a blessed celebration of the incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Six basic questions/objections have been raised by my YE friends to my OE interpretation. Below are my answers. I am hoping that we will find common ground in 2010 for the more important issues -- like defending God in the public square against atheistic and agnostic attack.

#1 -- The Bible explicitly says the earth is thousands of years old. One can easily calculate the number of years the earth has been in existence by the number of years in genealogies between Adam and Jesus. Proper biblical hermeneutics shows that the earth was created thousands of years ago in six 24-hour days. It is only the extra-biblical data that leads people to incorrectly interpret the Bible.

The Bible does not explicitly say the earth is thousands of years old. If it did there would be chapter and verse and I would believe it. It is the interpretation by some that makes the earth thousands of years old. "Proper hermeneutics" involves assumptions and interpretation which may or may not be true. I am willing to admit that YE is one appropriate interpretation of the Scripture, but I'm not willing to admit that it is the only one. Nor even the best one which I think is OE. I am open to further information and understanding from both God and His creation (2 Tim 3:16, Romans 1:20), and I do not chastise my brothers who see it differently. But I do not commend their interpretation either.

#2 - The text demands that "yom" be translated to mean a 24 hour period of time. There is a number, an evening and a morning. How can you justify interpreting it as a long period of time? It has the same Hebrew structure as Numbers 7. Why interpret it any differently? Yom appears 2300 times in the OT -- how do you justify taking it out of context in Genesis 1?

The text does not demand that "yom" mean 24 hours in Genesis 1 and 2. Neither the Hebrew text, nor Hebrew scholars, nor the Church Fathers, nor modern day theologians can demand that it means 24 hours. Yom can mean an "epoch." "Evening and "morning" can just as easily mean "ending" and "beginning" of the epoch. The words God chose out of the limited Hebrew grammar set are perfectly valid for translation either way. Only those committed to a YE conclusion beforehand will insist that theirs is the only interpretation.

How do I justify intepreting yom as a long period of time in Genesis 1-2 and not necessarily elsewhere? Very simply - context. In Genesis 1-2 we are not talking about recurring, normal everyday events. We are talking about a one-time occurrence -- the start up of the entire creation. As we know from experience, conditions in any physical system are different in their start-up phase than in their ongoing state because of the initial conditions. We even analyze those periods of time differently -- the transient state versus the steady state. When I first read Genesis it didn't dawn on me that the yoms were 24 hours since a normal day depends on the existence of the sun and the rotation of the earth which the Scripture told me happened on yom 4. Creation is a unique event and it demands a unique context.

I knew I needed to study and understand much more than my initial reading inferred. As a new Christian I was totally open to the views of those who had gone before me. As I recounted in my testimony, I studied in depth the YE, OE, metaphor, and gap interpretations and came to peace with OE being the best explanation without having to claim it as the only one. I am still open.


#3 - The Ten Commandments explicitly defines "day" (the Sabbath day) as a common 24 hour day (Ex 20:11).

There is no doubt a calendar week of 7 days is based on the 7 periods of creation as given in the Bible. There is no biblical necessity, however, that there has to be a 24 hour to 24 hour correspondence. There are many instances in Scripture where "days" are used to memorialize significant events without any consideration as to how long the actual event took.

#4 - If Yom 6 were a long period of time then the genealogies would be screwed up -- the years until Seth would be incorrect. How long would Adam have had to wait for Eve? Years? Decades? Centuries? The physical phenomena recorded on the various days could not work if they were long periods of time, e.g., plants would be without sunlight, fertilization without bees, etc.

I don't know how long yom 6 is but is appears from the context that it is longer than 24 hours. God creates Adam, puts him a garden to cultivate it, and teaches him a law to understand and obey. God gives Adam sufficient time without a mate for it to be "not good to be alone." There is sufficient time for God to create every animal and then bring them to Adam so he can name them all. Then God puts Adam into a deep sleep and creates Eve. This sure looks like more than 24 hours worth of activity. Again I don't think how long the day was is the point.

Then there is yom 7 -- the Sabbath -- which does not have an "evening" and a "morning." In context of Gen 2:2, on the Sabbath day God is resting from creating; and according to Hebrews 4:4 God is still in that state. I can easily interpret yom 7 as thousands of years long if I wanted to be "literal" without context. And we know that God-time is not man-time (Ps 90:4).

Regarding how the physical phenomena occur in this "start-up state" I don't know. It requires supernatural interaction whether the days are 24 hours, nanoseconds, or long periods of time. Creation was an unique epoch in the history of the earth and God chose to give us just an overview. He did not give us a scientific text and I'm afraid if we treat it too much of one we err in His purpose and intent; and even do injustice to His witness though creation.


#5 - Give the text to a 6 year old and none will interpret it to mean a long period of time.

However, give the text to a 36 year old, 21st century critical thinker and many will interpret it as a long period of time. I was one of them. When I read Genesis for the first time as a spirit-filled believer I was thrilled to see how it matched up to the reality of what I thought we knew from the "Book of Nature." I wouldn't have to check my brain at the door to become a Christian. God's Word goes out to the ends of the earth for all people (age, location, history, mental capacity, etc.) to tell of His glory (Ps 19:1-4).

#6 - The Wikipedia timeline shows a shows a precise biblical history of mankind. How can you read the Bible literally and insert huge gaps and millions of years without destroying the historicity?

From the end of the 6th Genesis yom on I accept the timeline as given in the Bible (even knowing the genealogies have gaps). The long time periods in my OE interpretation happen before yom 6. One such interpretation can be found at http://www.reasons.org/creation-timeline. (you may have to type "creation timeline" into the search bar)

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

733Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty ***M*E*R*R*Y***C*H*R*I*S*T*M*A*S*** Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:10 am

lordfry

lordfry

To ALL (or should I say Both) of YOU ...

I pray that God will fill your hearts with Joy & Praise
for our Lord and Saviour "JESUS" the CHRIST of Christmas !!! santa
Let us lay aside our personal differences of the How? & When? ...
for the Holy-Days ... so we can enjoy our Families without distraction!
2010 will be an interesting year ... with things (most likely) getting worse
before they get better? But ... as Christians ... we have NOTHING to fear !!!
So ... let's enjoy this calm before the storm ... as I plan on bringing my
"*A*"Game to the Debate ... and flipping the current Paradigm !!!

Blessings ...


Bret*

734Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Merry Christmas To All Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:56 am

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

To Everyone

I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas! I have greatly enjoyed debating you this past year. We have covered a lot of ground since we started and I am looking forward to the fertile grounds and promised land in the months ahead as we explore evolution, design, and Darwinism. May God bless all of you that are taking an interest and spending your time in this challenging debate seemingly the greatest of our era. Thanks for the time you have spent and the serious thought you have put into the various topics! It has been a pleasure while being mentally challenging. I wish all of life's challenges could be this much fun!

Brother Lee Very Happy santa rendeer



Last edited by InfinitLee on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:07 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)

735Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty How Long Is A Day of The Lord? Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:32 am

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

Bret 
Thanks again for clarifying your position and supporting my argument even further using precious verses. I agree with you that the Lord made His Creation in six DAYS. These were HIS days as you explain in Exodus 20:11. 
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
Now the only thing left to do is determine how long a day of the Lord is. Peter comes to the rescue because he states:

 2 Peter 3:8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.

So there you have your answer for the creation week. Creation days while God was doing the creating are much longer than human days; they are LIKE a thousand years.   'Epoch' is a much better word in our modern language than 'day' from 'yôm' as a result of correct analysis of Bible verses as a result.

Don't worry even if days were much longer than the YE currently endorses, they still don't allow Darwinism to work as currently splain'd by the secular community. More coming on this. Can we get back to the debate on Darwinism now? 

Lee

lordfry

lordfry

Trick E. Lee ...

Who ever said that the word "Day" always means 24-hours?
Textbook "Straw Man" argument !!!
HonestLee ... did you even read what Lucien CLEARLY stated?

Maybe I should ask you this:
If God meant six DAYS of creation, how could he have written it any clearer?
You may say "He should have used hours or minutes". Well, what makes me stop from questioning how long an hour is in that case?
What did people then, and now, experience, which I am to find out soon too. A day has an evening, going to bed, and a morning getting up and work.

Can day mean something else? Absolutely!
In my father's day, it took a day to drive to London during the day.
There are three meanings of day in this sentence. Ultimately it is the context that determines the exact meaning.


CHAIR !!!

You thought that is something to sit on.
But I meant it as a position that somebody holds.
If i had made a sentence, or a wee story, then you would have known immediately what I meant.

So in my opinion, to hold your view, you have to have a "cramped-in" meaning of the word day, and hermeneutically it does not have a strong case at all.


Maybe WE should focus in on the following Verse!

(Exodus 20:11)
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day;
therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."

No claims of poorly expressed inspiration ... or analogous transliteration can be made here!
This Verse was written in STONE ... by the Finger of GOD !!!
You also might want to note that God was kinda pissed-off when he wrote this!
He was communicating as CLEARLY ... & forthrightly as possible to His creation ...
about the things that He wanted us to KNOW & UNDERSTAND !!!
If He wanted us to work for 6-days ... and then rest for a day ... He could have just said so!
There is ABSOLUTELY no reason for God to use His Creation Week as a template for our regular
normal standard human work-week!
Why? ....... WHY! ... would God Command us to know this FACT ???
As Lucy used to say to Ricky ....... "Splain?" !!!


Bret*

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

I'm alive! Yeah, two people have responded, I pray there are more! Oh happy day!!

Bryan, nice article on the basics of radiometric dating. Bless you. The hour glass is a cute simple way of getting the basics across.

Bret, I am glad you accepted the verse as truth because it shows everyone that there is more than one way to determine the length of day according to the Bible; not that a day for God is exactly 1000 years (that would be silly). The variation in the length of a day (yôm) is mostly what I was trying to get across to Lucien and Bryan. The Day of the Lord obviously doesn't mean one 24 hour day. Thanks for the confirmation. I believe you acceptance of the thousand year meaning has effectively refuted the strict interpretation that day always means a 24 hour period.

Brother Lee

chunnel



Radiometric Dating: Back to Basics
by Andrew A. Snelling
June 17, 2009

Featured In
Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Cover4-3

Radiometric dating is often used to “prove” rocks are millions of years old. Once
you understand the basic science, however, you can see how wrong
assumptions lead to incorrect dates.

Most people think that radioactive dating has proven the earth is billions of years old. After
all, textbooks, media, and museums glibly present ages of millions of
years as fact.

Yet few people know how radiometric dating works or bother to ask what assumptions drive the conclusions. So let’s
take a closer look and see how reliable this dating method really is.

Atoms—Basics We Observe Today

Each chemical element, such as carbon and oxygen, consists of atoms. Each atom is thought to be made up of three basic parts.


Radiometric Dating 101

PART 1: Back to Basics
PART 2: Problems with the Assumptions
PART 3: Making Sense of the Patterns

This three-part series will help you properly understand radiometric dating,
the assumptions that lead to inaccurate dates, and the clues about what
really happened in the past.

The nucleus contains protons (tiny particles each with a single positive electric charge)
and neutrons (particles without any electric charge). Orbiting around
the nucleus are electrons (tiny particles each with a single negative
electric charge).

The atoms of each element may vary slightly in the numbers of neutrons within their nuclei. These
variations are called isotopes of that element. While the number of
neutrons varies, every atom of any element always has the same number
of protons and electrons.

So, for example, every carbon atom contains six protons and six electrons, but the number of neutrons
in each nucleus can be six, seven, or even eight. Therefore, carbon has
three isotopes (variations), which are specified carbon-12, carbon-13,
and carbon-14 (Figure 1).
Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Atoms
Radioactive Decay

Some isotopes are radioactive; that is, they are unstable because their
nuclei are too large. To achieve stability, the atom must make
adjustments, particularly in its nucleus. In some cases, the isotopes
eject particles, primarily neutrons and protons. (These are the moving
particles measured by Geiger counters and the like.) The end result is
a stable atom, but of a different chemical element (not carbon) because
the atom now has a different number of protons and electrons.

This process of changing one element (designated as the parent isotope) into
another element (referred to as the daughter isotope) is called
radioactive decay. The parent isotopes that decay are called
radioisotopes.

"Radiometric dating is based on an observable fact of science: unstable atoms will break down over a measurable period of time."

Actually, it isn’t really a decay process in the normal sense of the word, like
the decay of fruit. The daughter atoms are not lesser in quality than
the parent atoms from which they were produced. Both are complete atoms
in every sense of the word.

Geologists regularly use five parent isotopes to date rocks: uranium-238, uranium-235, potassium-40,
rubidium-87, and samarium-147. These parent radioisotopes change into
daughter lead-206, lead-207, argon-40, strontium-87, and neodymium-143
isotopes, respectively. Thus geologists refer to uranium-lead (two
versions), potassium-argon, rubidium-strontium, or samarium-neodymium
dates for rocks. Note that the carbon-14 (or radiocarbon) method is not
used to date rocks because most rocks do not contain carbon.

Chemical Analysis of Rocks Today

Geologists can’t use just any old rock for dating. They must find rocks that have
the isotopes listed above, even if these isotopes are present only in
minute amounts. Most often, this is a rock body, or unit, that has
formed from the cooling of molten rock material (called magma).
Examples are granites (formed by cooling under the ground) and basalts
(formed by cooling of lava at the earth’s surface).

The next step is to measure the amount of the parent and daughter isotopes
in a sample of the rock unit. Specially equipped laboratories can do
this with accuracy and precision. So, in general, few people quarrel
with the resulting chemical analyses.

It is the interpretation of these chemical analyses that raises potential
problems. To understand how geologists “read” the age of a rock from
these chemical analyses, let’s use the analogy of an hourglass “clock”
(Figure 2).
Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Wrong-assumptions
In an hourglass, grains of fine sand fall at a steady rate from the top
bowl to the bottom. After one hour, all the sand has fallen into the
bottom bowl. So, after only half an hour, half the sand should be in
the top bowl, and the other half should be in the bottom bowl.

Suppose that a person did not observe when the hourglass was turned over. He
walks into the room when half the sand is in the top bowl, and half the
sand is in the bottom bowl. Most people would assume that the “clock”
started half an hour earlier.

By way of analogy, the sand grains in the top bowl represent atoms of the parent radioisotope
(uranium-238, potassium-40, etc.) (Figure 2). The falling sand
represents radioactive decay, and the sand at the bottom represents the
daughter isotope (lead-206, argon-40, etc).

When a geologist tests a rock sample, he assumes all the daughter atoms were
produced by the decay of the parent since the rock formed. So if he
knows the rate at which the parent decays, he can calculate how long it
took for the daughter (measured in the rock today) to form.

But what if the assumptions are wrong? For example, what if radioactive
material was added to the top bowl or if the decay rate has changed?
Future articles will explore the assumptions that can lead to incorrect
dates and how the Bible’s history helps us make better sense of the
patterns of radioactive “dates” we find in the rocks today.

Dr. Andrew Snelling holds a PhD in geology from the University of Sydney and has worked as
a consultant research geologist to organizations in both Australia and
America. Author of numerous scientific articles, Dr. Snelling is now
the head of the Research Division at Answers in Genesis–USA.

lordfry

lordfry

InvisibLee ...

You could use a few days out in the Sunlight ...
but you're definitely NOT a ghost! pale
You & I both know (for a fact)... that 2nd Peter
is NOT a "Time" conversion key!
It means that God exists OUTSIDE of His Created
Time Continuum !!!
There is NO SUCH THING as God "days" !!!
That is EXACTLY what this verse is explaining!
But hey! ... I'll take the bait.
6-days of Creation + 1-day of Rest = 7-God days!
7 x 1000-years = 7000 years!
7000 years + 6000 years of recorded History = 13,000 years!
I can live with that! ....... Can you ???
It doesn't say that a Day is like a Thousand Years (CUBED) ???
What else ya got?

Bret*

740Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty It's Good To Know I'm Not A Ghost Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:31 am

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

Thanks for the feedback, at least one person can read my posts.

What part about God's day being like a thousand years is so hard to understand or is it that you just don't believe it. This phrase seems to be a stumbling block for the YE interpretation and not my old earth view and it's right there in 2 Peter with no interpretation required. Why don't you believe what you read in the Bible, is it because you have believed in a young earth for so long that you can't accept the truth that God tells you it is old?

I do appreciate your attempt at trying to make a technical case for changing decay rates. However, an extremely small variation due to an xray burst from the sun does not equate to the billions of times rate increase needed to support the young earth concept. Maybe you would provide us with a writeup of how this much faster rate could occur?

Lee

chunnel



Lee,

I notice that the only people that say that the length of the days shouldn't be a stumbling block are the one's that say that the length of days can't be what the bible says it is. It's not a stumbling block for me, but it is for you. There is no way on God's green earth that you are ever going to look at the words as written and stop trying to come up with excuses that it really doesn't mean what it says. And I know what you mean where you write something and put a lot of time and effort into it, and research facts and come to great conclusions and then people respond that you haven't used any facts... Wait, let me try to remember who said that to me... Hmm, can't remember right now, perhaps you remember Lee?

742Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Back To The Age of Adam Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:05 pm

InfinitLee

InfinitLee

Sometimes I think I'm a ghost. I write posts and they appear on the blog but nobody seems to read them or respond anymore. I put lots of content in them so there is plenty to discuss, comment on, or attack for those that disagree. But there is no response from anyone. I must have turned into a ghost that writes in apparition text. If anyone can see this please let me know or I will have to assume that I no longer exist in your world and I will have to move on..

Just in case I'm wrong in my assumption, I would quickly like to address Lucien's challenge. His arguement hinges on the phrase 'in the beginning' he references in Mark and Mathew when referring to the Adam and Eve as male and female. This phrasing could easily imply only their beginning as compared to the entire universe. I seems to be a stretch of the imagination that all creation must have started six 24 hour days prior due to this repeated statement in two gospels. 

My biggest complaint with this untenable view is the pretense that God's days must be the same as current human days. Your analysis has ignored the verse 2 Peter 3:8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.  God was doing all the creating in Genesis 1, so the days there are clearly God's days. Throughout most of the remainder of the Bible the days relate to human accounts with time given appropriately in human days roughly 24 hours per day. This attempt to tie two clearly different periods of time together is creating a conflict that doesn't need to be. The scientific sequence of evolutionary events on earth matches those listed in Genesis 1 if one permits long time periods for yôm, a perfectly good translation from the Hebrew text. The length of the day should not be a stumbling block for the Christian community because it causes disharmony among us, unnecessary conflict with the secular community and a loss of credibility for Christianity amongst the non-believers.  

Brother Lee     Rolling Eyes



Last edited by InfinitLee on Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Removed excess spaces; grammar)

743Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Y.E. Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:49 am

chunnel



Even looking at Wikipedia, which no-one would argue has a extremely liberal point of view, has a biblical timeline that is remarkably accurate, down to the point that we know exact dates, thousands of years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Bible
So I'll just ask this. If the dates did have huge gaps and millions of years were inserted here and there as need to explain an old earth, then how do you explain that when you read the bible literally, that all these dates come together with such great precision? I would postulate that if the gap theory were true, that these dating methods would show great errors in calculations, not such great accuracy that we can predict the beginning of earth to be around 6,000 years ago.
In fact we often see arguments about some event 3,000 years ago in which scholars will claim happened 40 years later or earlier than we thought, and they will then claim that this proves the bible inaccurate because of this 40 year difference. The fact that we can be so precise is forgotten in the discourse. In fact currently the date of the Exodus is in disagreement by only 150 years at the maximum.
So how could this accuracy exist if your gap theory were true? I would say, it couldn't. It would be impossible.

744Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty SUMMARY of the YE Challenge Questions Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:12 am

stu

stu

#1 -- The Bible explicitly says the earth is thousands of years old. One can easily calculate the number of years the earth has been in existence by the number of years in genealogies between Adam and Jesus. Proper biblical hermeneutics shows that the earth was created thousands of years ago in six 24-hour days. It is only the extra-biblical data that leads people to incorrectly interpret the Bible.

#2 - The text demands that "yom" be translated to mean a 24 hour period of time. There is a number, an evening and a morning. How can you justify interpreting it as a long period of time? It has the same Hebrew structure as Numbers 7. Why interpret it any differently? Yom appears 2300 times in the OT -- how do you justify taking it out of context in Genesis 1?

#3 - The Ten Commandments explicitly defines "day" (the Sabbath day) as a common 24 hour day (Ex 20:11).

#4 - If Yom 6 were a long period of time then the genealogies would be screwed up -- the years until Seth would be incorrect. How long would Adam have had to wait for Eve? Years? Decades? Centuries? The physical phenomena recorded on the various days could not work if they were long periods of time, e.g., plants would be without sunlight, fertilization without bees, etc.

#5 - Give the text to a 6 year old and none will interpret it to mean a long period of time.

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

stu

stu

More OE challenges from my YE friend Lucien which he has given me permission to post .....

Was Jonah in the fish for 3 long periods? How do you know?
Did Joshua walk around for 3 long periods? How do you know?

Why interpret yom in context different from the same Hebrew structure as in Numbers 7? Or did the different tribes take long periods to bring their offerings?
What Biblical exegesis have you got to warrant this?
Yom appears over 2300 times in the OT, why oh why must only the Gen. 1 mention be taken out of context.

Does your boss expect you to work 6 (or 5) long periods before you get 1 (or 2) long periods off?
How did the plants survive for a long period without sunlight. In fact, how did fertilization happen without any bees for long periods?

Yeah, i may start to sound tedious, i know.

How long did Adam have to wait for his companion Eve? In context, it would be hours. In your view it could be years, decades or centuries before she came on the scene.
Or is your yom 6 a 24-hour day? Because if your 6th yom is also a long period, then already your genealogies are screwed up and the years given until Seth are incorrect.
So you have a problem there.
Thus you must shift your long periods to before day 6. But from my plant analogies we see that on day three we have plants, which need sun and beez. So shift them to days 1 and 2?
So how are these different than the other days?

Where exactly does the meaning of yom change from long period to 24-hour period or vice versa?
There is only one correct answer here Stu, if you are honest with yourself, and the answer is: it depends on the context.
Does the text demand long periods: NO.
Does the text demand 24-hour periods: YES. there is a number, there is an evening, there is a morning, a day.

Give a 6-year old your Bible and ask them to read. Do they get the idea of long periods of time: NO.
Where do these come from (and may i add they are oh so forced, since it does not work really well if you look at some of my statements above): extra-Biblical ideas.

Maybe I should ask you this:
If God meant six DAYS of creation, how could he have written it any clearer?
You may say "He should have used hours or minutes". Well, what makes me stop from questioning how long an hour is in that case?
What did people then, and now, experience, which I am to find out soon too. A day has an evening, going to bed, and a morning getting up and work.

Can day mean something else? Absolutely!
In my father's day, it took a day to drive to London during the day.
There are three meanings of day in this sentence. Ultimately it is the context that determines the exact meaning.

CHAIR !!!

You thought that is something to sit on.
But I meant it as a position that somebody holds.
If i had made a sentence, or a wee story, then you would have known immediately what I meant.

So in my opinion, to hold your view, you have to have a "cramped-in" meaning of the word day, and hermeneutically it does not have a strong case.
At all.

Sorry.
LT

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

chunnel



New Doubts About Half-Life Dating

Non-Technical - Nov 05, 2009 - by Stephen Caesar MA

Tags: radiometric dating, radioactive decay, carbon 14 dating

The most widely used tool to measure the age of the Earth is radioactive decay. The great scientist Ernest Rutherford was the first to define the concept of “half-life,” that is, the time it takes for one half of the atoms in a given quantity of a radioactive element (such as plutonium) to decay into another element (such as uranium), or for one isotope of an element (such as carbon-14) to decay into another isotope of that same element (such as carbon-12).

Moreover, Rutherford and all scientists since him have declared that the radioactive decay of a given element or isotope occurs “at a specific, universal, immutable rate” (Castelvecchi 2008: 21). Based on this assumption, scientists use the decay rate of certain substances to date the age of rock formations, fossils, and the Earth itself.

However, this assumption has recently come under doubt. The November 22, 2008, issue of the journal Science News reported that, “when researchers suggested in August [2008] that the sun causes variations in the decay rates of isotopes of silicon, chlorine, radium and manganese, the physics community reacted with curiosity, but mostly with skepticism” (Ibid.).

Despite this skepticism, there is proof that this is true. For example, a team at Purdue University in Indiana was monitoring a lump of manganese-54 in a radiation detector box to measure the isotope’s half-life. At 9:37 PM on December 12, 2006, the instruments recorded a sudden dip in radioactivity. At that same moment, satellites on the other side of the Earth (the daylight side) detected X rays coming from the sun, which signaled the beginning of a solar flare (Ibid.).

This was not the only evidence for such a change in the radioactive decay rate. As far back as the 1980s, a study of silicon-32 at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York State, and another study of radium-226 at the PTB, a scientific institute in Germany, made similar findings. Both studies were long-term, and, according to Science News, “both had seen seasonal variations of a few tenths of a percent in the decay rates of the respective isotopes” (Ibid.). The journal went on to point out:

A change of less than a percent may not sound like a lot. But if the change is real, rather than an anomaly in the detector, it would challenge the entire concept of half-life and even force physicists to rewrite their nuclear physics textbooks (Ibid.).

Because the decay rates in the two studies from the 1980s were altered by the seasons, physicists suspect that the sun was affecting the rates of decay, “possibly through some physical mechanism that had never before been observed” (Ibid.). The Brookhaven study, for example, which lasted from 1982 till 1986, showed that samples of silicon-32 and chrlorine-36 “had rates of decay that varied with the seasons, by about 0.3 percent” (Ibid. 22). Science News went on to report:

The samples were kept at constant temperature and humidity, so the changing seasons should have had no effect on the experiment. The team tried all the fixes it could to get rid of the fluctuations, but, in the end, decided to publish the results (Ibid.).

The results were ignored by the scientific community. “People just sort of forgot about it, I guess,” commented David Alburger, the Brookhaven scientist who had conducted the experiment (Ibid). Alburger was unaware that, at the exact same time, the German scientists at the PTB had found the same thing, with “yearly oscillations in a decay rate, in a 15-year experiment with radium-226” (Ibid.). Again, the finding made no splash in the scientific community.

Such small fluctuations in the rate of radioactive decay may not seem like much, but, as Science News noted, it is great enough to cause physicists to change their entire way of looking at the concept of half-life and the accuracy with which it measures ancient ages. Moreover, if solar activity was greater in the past, before humanity began measuring it, then the changes in radioactive decay might actually be greater than those measured by the scientists at Brookhaven, PTB, and Purdue.

Reference:
Castelvecchi, D. 2008. “Half-Life (More or Less).” Science News 174, no. 11.

Editorial note: The Institute for Creation Research published detailed scientific evidence to show that these dating methods have several flaws, and produced evidence to show there was billion-fold accelerated decay in the past, most likely occuring at the time of the Flood. ABR hosted a RATE Conference (Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth) with over 700 attendees in the Fall of 2006. For more on this important research, visit: http://store.icr.org/prodinfo.asp?number=BRATE1

You may visit this post and the comments following at http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/11/05/New-Doubts-About-Half-Life-Dating.aspx

747Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty *** Let me just add ... *** Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:52 pm

lordfry

lordfry

(Exodus 20:11)
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy."
This was written in Stone ... by the Finger of God Himself !!!
Does this make ANY sense (at all)... if you change the word "day"
into "indefinite period of time" ???
Are we Commanded to rest for a Billion years each week? Idea

Bret*

748Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty A YE Logical Challenge to OEers from Lucien Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:38 am

stu

stu

My bonny friend from Scotland - Lucien Tuinstra -- gave me a good logical and theological challenge -- and permission to publlish for all of us to wrestle with.

Let's apply some logic here and let's see where you disagree.

Assumption 1) The earth is billions of years old (4.6?)
Assumption 2) The earth is in the order of 6000 years old. And certainly not much more.
3) statements 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. I.e. they cannot both be true. Only one is the truth.
4) The HS is the Spirit of truth, for God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19).
5) Therefore, it is not up to the readers interpretation if contradicting answers can emerge. Because the faulty interpretation cannot be HS inspired. (refer also to point 3 and 4)

The Bible DOES say thousands of years. Surely you must have heard about those numbers attached to the genealogies, something so important to the Jewish people. Something the scribes copied painstakingly with great precision.
The genealogies that link Jesus with Adam physically (decendance or ancestory, depending which way you go).
Adam the first and Adam the last are also spiritually linked in 1 Cor. 15:45 and Rom. 5.
So, to restate (yes, being blunt here): I can show the amount of years between Adam and Jesus. Assuming that we both agree Jesus was born about 2000 years ago, it is the simple adding of a few numbers to come to the age of the earth.

You will probably now revert to either the gap-theory or day-age theory, which means putting millions and milllions of years before Adam (or are you proposing to put them in the genealogies?). Something that is not even hinted at in a plain reading of the Bible.
I will come back with Matthew 19:4 or Mark 10:6 and say that Adam and Eve were created at the beginning, not at the end.
To which you may say that day 6 is not exactly at the beginning at which point I will say it is at least a lot closer than your theory.

Now I may have your view completely wrong, but these are some of the standard conversations one can have.

I will say again, and I can quote numerous scolars, that hermeneutics teaches a young earth created thousands of years ago in six 24-hour days. BUT, because of scientific findings, this is allegedly not correct.
So it is stuff from outside the Bible, which makes people re-interpret the Word of God.

Am I completely off? Tell me if I am.

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

749Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Here's something we can all be proud of ... Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:27 am

stu

stu

Ouch. Intelligent Design Guys Put the Sleeperhold on Darwin's Defenders

The great debate over the adequacy of evolution continues. Sort of. The latest head to head meeting had Dr. Stephen Meyer and Dr. Richard Sternberg debating Dr. Michael Shermer and Dr. Donald Prothero. Heading into the debate I was quite excited; these aren't lightweights, after all. The defenders of evolution are well known in science circles and to followers of the overall debate. Indeed, we've blogged a fair amount on Dr. Prothero who has, shall we say, a colorful and cavalier way with the facts. He is known more for polemical bromides and spurious personal attacks than for any serious science.

Waiting for the event to start, I was wondering if Prothero would be better behaved in person than he is hiding behind a keyboard. His partner was Skeptic magazine's head honcho, Michael Shermer, who has debated Stephen Meyer before, and is known for making more theological arguments against ID, as opposed to bringing any serious scientific criticisms bear. I expected he would be the good cop to Prothero's keystone cop. What I didn't know was that Prothero would be Ed McMahon to his Johnny Carson.

On the other side, the contenders are just as well credentialed — maybe more so — with one holding a philosophy of science degree from Cambridge (Meyer) being the less qualified, since Sternberg holds two degrees in evolutionary and theoretical biology. Not to mention that Meyer's new book, Signature in the Cell, is by far the most prominent book of any of the participants, having just been named a bestseller by Amazon.com, and last week honored in the Times Literary Supplement of the London Times as one of the best books of the year.

It was all shaping up to be a serious heavyweight bout. And then Meyer and Sternberg simply KO'd the competition in the opening round. If I were being generous I might say that Prothero tripped over his own arrogance and impaled himself on his condescension, but let's be honest; he was completely knocked out by Sternberg. I think Sternberg earned a third degree tonight, one in evolutionary bulldozing.

The debate video will be made available at some point by American Freedom Alliance, the sponsors of the debate, along with Center for Inquiry, The Skeptics Society and Discovery Institute.

Shermer opened by denouncing intelligent design as not science and not to be confused with science, which is what he and Prothero apparently assumed to be the topic of the debate. (It wasn't, sadly.) Then he turned it over to Prothero, who — after repeatedly repeating that science cannot resort to the supernatural — proceeded to race through a litany of complaints against intelligent design and assertions about the creation of amino acids and proteins, most of which was non-controversial and also not evidence for Darwinian evolution. Prothero made a number of claims about RNA chains, about how the evidence of the fossil record is "ironclad" or would be if people treated it fairly, and about how the Miller-Urey experiment was right, "and even if they weren't it still works" (quit laughing, he was serious!). His Darwinian motivational rant went on about how the Cambrian explosion was really a "slow fuse," not an explosion. Amazingly, he claimed that almost all the major phyla had ancestors 50 million years before the Cambrian. Alas, he was so far wrong that it wasn't all that much effort to point it out, completely discredit him, and then let him hang himself with his twisted rope of unearned arrogance and condescension. If you're going to be arrogant, you'd better be able to back it up with something better than, "I climbed some rocks in Russia and read an article in The New Scientist."

To call the debate a massacre would be a discredit to Sitting Bull. The only thing I can say is that Shermer needs to add a point to his booklet on how to debate "creationists" — namely, leave Donald Prothero at home in his van by the river.

This guy is to be taken seriously? I had to remind myself not to laugh every so often during his presentation — it was so pathetic and ill-informed. Basically, Shermer and Prothero blathered on about supernaturalism, and Meyer ceded his time to Sternberg, who made an interesting presentation about whale evolution. Then he proceeded to point out the topic of the debate to Shermer and Prothero: Has Evolutionary Theory Adequately Explained the Origins of Life?, something which they never addressed because they were so busy falling all over themselves to denounce intelligent design.

Some of the best points came later in the debate, when Sternberg slammed Prothero with factual put down after factual put down, citing the current literature time and again. His command of the subject matter — from population genetics to junk DNA — was so far and above beyond Shermer and Prothero's knowledge, so far above their pay grade, that it was almost painful to watch him school them point after point. As I said before, shortly you'll be able to watch the debate for yourself. But be warned, it isn't pretty.

Posted by Robert Crowther on December 1, 2009 Discovery Institute

IMPORTANT -- I just received this follow-up from the Discovery Institute

Stephen Meyer's Signature in the Cell is gaining momentum, and now the Darwinists are fighting back. After Dr. Meyer and Dr. Sternberg trounced Darwinists Michael Shermer and Donald Prothero in last week's debate, desperate Darwinists are lashing out at Dr. Meyer, trashing his book at Amazon.com. They can't afford for more people to be exposed to the arguments that Meyer is making, so they have resorted to trying to ruin the book's reputation.

If you have read Signature in the Cell, we need your help! Please write a review at Amazon.com (they need not be long, just honest). This is a book that has earned its place in the top 10 list of bestselling science books at Amazon, the book that made the Times Literary Supplement's Top Books of 2009, and an author who was named "Daniel of the Year" for his work. Please take a moment and defend Dr. Meyer and his groundbreaking book.

Stu's concluding comment -- I've almost finished reading Meyer's book -- it is excellent. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in good science. I will be writing a review for Amazon.

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

750Young Earth or Old Earth?  Here is where to post your thoughts! - Page 30 Empty Webcast: Deserting Darwin: Tonight 7:05 CST Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:57 pm

stu

stu

Merry Christmas My Dear Friends --

What has happened to you all? Lee and I are the last ones standing -- debating theistic evolution all by ourselves.

I just finished watching this webcast on young earth creationism -- so you see I'm still hanging in there for an AHA moment -- but it doesn't happen. Mostly I think it's because the argumentation seems so contrived. How can one not think that uniformitarianism is an excellent scientific methodology for conducting historical science? Without it we have no basis for concluding anything in historical science -- even intelligent design theory -- which I hope none of us want to refute? Or do you?

And why am I as an OEer always put in the same box with the evolutionists? Billions of years does not help the improbability of evolution occurring.

The scientific explanations given for a YE were -- volcanic ash improperly tested; the salt deposit rate in the ocean; the rate of the moon receding from the earth; and a faint sun (75%) 3.4 billion of years ago. All these theories are extremely debatable and it appears to me end up far short of believability.

But the one aspect of the YE talk that is actually offensive to me is the oft repeated phrase, "Just as the Bible says" with the implication that the YE interpretation of the Bible is the only one. Geez, we just went through 8 months of showing how Christians throughout the ages have had differing thoughts on that.

Anyway, I'm still of the position that -- some Christians believe in YE, some in OE, but all believe that God did it and that there is a whole new scientific body of evidence for believing that the universe was intelligently designed.

Please come back!

Warmly in Christ,

Stu

ps - I even went into the chat room after the webcast. That was quite an experience :)

http://christperspectives.wordpress.com

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 30 of 40]

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 16 ... 29, 30, 31 ... 35 ... 40  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum