Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

Lee ...


I honestly don't even know where to begin with responding to your last Post?
It would seem that you've proved my greatest fears about where things lead when you choose to change the meaning
of God's Word to fit your personal perception of reality that's heavily influenced by the popular "theories" of the day!

I shouldn't be surprised that when you believe in a different kind of creation ...
that it would lead to you believing in a different kind (or method) of salvation ...
which means you (likely) believe in a completely different kind of god?

It's like taking an old-fashioned pocket-watch apart!
If you start to swap the gears around and put it back together ...
It will still look like a watch!
You can still wind it the same way!
It will still tick ... and the hands will still move!
But ... it will never tell you the correct time again!
Now the watch is not only useless ... but dangerous!
If you continue to use this watch and follow "its" time vs. reality
you will end-up losing your job, miss every meeting with your family & friends,
and eventually be committed to an asylum as a looney-toon!

May I suggest that we steer this debate into the realm of the "Science" that supports Evolution?
This way if (or should I say when)... you're wrong about what you believe ...
it can only effect your pride ... and not your Salvation?


With God's Word ... do not tinker
or you'll perish ... a dirty stinker



2012Bret*

God states in Isiah 45:7 (KJV, ASV) that He 'creates evil' as well as things that are good. In other verses it becomes clear that God is responsible for making everything that exists (Jn 1:3, Col1:16). The statement that God 'creates evil' isn't easily accepted by most human beings, as they look up to Him as omnipotent, omniscient, and a strictly good eternal being. They ask 'How can a 'good' God 'create evil'?'. When confronted with this question, many theologians are even stumped and respond with something like "That is one of the great mysteries of our faith". However, a thorough reading of the Bible and a comprehensive understanding of its message reveals a relatively simple answer to this seemingly difficult question. Here is my response (that I try to make as simple as I can) to this difficult question for some people and I hope it helps those that are puzzled by the amount of evil in the world.

God created everything for His pleasure. In the creation plan, God desired all human beings to become His spiritual sons and daughters to live in Heaven with him for eternity. Since God has free will, He wanted His children to have free will and freely choose to be with Him forever. However, the only way, the human spirit would be able to live peacefully with Him would be by freely complying with His laws regarding spiritual relationships: His commandments. Compliance with these laws would also require a great deal of spiritual discipline on the part of each heavenly soul. While under development, each soul commits evil or sins in the sight of God, and each soul is refined by the knowledge acquired on good and evil. God is unchanging and absolute for all time, as well as his spiritual laws for relationships between heavenly beings. Evil is not tolerated in heaven. Disobedience to His spiritual laws results in evil and results in sin or conflict between Himself and His potential eternal heavenly children. To make matters worse, the heavy burden of regret is added to an eternal spiritual being that has sinned while on earth against God, other future heavenly beings, and others that will not make it to Heaven as a result of our sinful actions. Foregiveness helps, but it doesn't erase the memory of what those sinful decisions cost others. Constantly abiding by these commandments, guarantees peace and good will among all of heaven's inhabitant's for eternity.

God foreknew everything that would occur in His creation since all of this creation's physical laws are deterministic (all known laws discovered thus far). From God's perspective, there is no chance outcome, everything was determined before the creation was set in motion. God also foreknows how everything ends. God acts freely outside of our time and can act freely at any point in our time. He is omnipresent in both space and time. But He also wanted His children to have free will, so He needed a system of physical laws for this world that would support both determinism for foreknowledge and executing His plan and free will for His children to choose to obey His spiritual laws. Consequently, as Jesus said humans are both 'body and spirit'. The body and brain being the material aspect due to the physical laws and the spirit being a manifestation of the dynamic informational content of the human mind residing in the brain built from physical materials. The information in the brain can express free will, while physical matter based on deterministic laws does not have this capability. Spiritual information is the free will organization of matter. When we are born we are a free will blank sheet. Human spiritual characteristics are informational and defined over a person's lifetime by each individual's informational input and their free will decisions on what action to take. This information is recorded as physical patterns that change over time in the brain's extremely complex neuron interconnection structure and the soul's character imbedded in these patterns interacts with other new external information to produce new thought and actions. By intentional design of our body and spirit, God has a deterministic physical law connection to the brain to obtain foreknowledge of free will decisions in each individual and how their character turned out over their lifetimes.

He knew before He started this universe because of the way He designed it, the names of those who would rebel against His commandments and authority. Even knowing evil would be present in this world due to these free will decisions of each individual human that would ever live, He went ahead with His plan. He found this evil undesired but necessary in order to allow free will in the development His spiritually compatible children, the ones that would freely accept His spiritual laws and make the decision to try and live by them. It is a monumental task 'to be like God' as Satan trickfully enticed Adam and Eve to commit our path toward. So far only Jesus Christ has accomplished the mission but in God's time and with His grace other children will perhaps make the grade and be perfect. This is not a trivial process and one that contains inumerable trespasses, an extraordinary amount of foregiveness, and many changes in spiritual direction for each of us. All tolled, a mountain of evil would accummulate in this world and be paid for by one perfect spiritual being: God Himself, come to earth as Jesus Christ, the architect and the sacrifice. God created it all, but also paid the price for it all!

As a result of God's design, we can be a true child of God with free will and choose to become more like Him each and everyday of our existence. We need to do good instead of evil in God's sight to minimize our regrets and conflicts for eternity. Yes, God 'creates evil' as an unintended by product of free will, but it's for God's higher cause: to have more 'good' free souls like His that will live for eternity. Evil in this world is truly a consequence of free will decisions disobeying God's commandments. God's greater mission to enlarge His family and to eventually defeat evil for His heavenly souls justifies His decision: those accepting Jesus as their Lord, Saviour, and Holy Spirit as their guide for their thoughts and actions.

Lee

Lee ...


I'm sorry to hear about your Mother!
I appreciate your concern about my well-being ... but when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior
He freed me from ALL forms of bondage and the Evil Principalities that wield them!
Even though I'm not much of a drinker these days ... I do think that it's worth pointing out that Alcohol
is NOT sinful or evil ... but reveling in drunkenness is !!!
Food is NOT evil or sinful ... but it is gluttony that God warns us about!
Anything abused to the point of excess is sinful in God's eyes!
Not so much because it is unhealthful to us ... but because these things become idols to the abusers!

God did NOT create "Satan"... but instead He created Lucifer (the most perfect Angel of them all)...
who "chose" to turn against God (made possible by FREE WILL)... and Evil entered into God's creation!
The same logic holds true for Hitler and all the other Evildoers!
Yes! ... God knew that they would "choose" Evil instead of following His will ... but He did NOT cause them
to choose their path ... He basically had to allow for this to happen ... or He could never be truly loved ... !!!

Any Questions?



2012Bret*

Bret,
You gave me quite a scare; I thought you went over the cliff with your cult buddies a few weeks ago after finishing off the Kool-Aid. My mother died many years ago from excessive drinking, so bad things really do happen to nice people as a result of substance abuse. You need to kick your habit so you can keep your mind rational and your path straight toward eternity with God. I hope you will be able to stay away from the Ketel-One, dopey substances, and anything else your buddies try to get you to drink or lust for before you have totally lost your mind or hallucinate your way over the cliff.

Your last post, suggests that you are still imbibing (or imagining) and rationalizing that the Bible is saying something that it is clearly not. Why would you search so extensively for a verse to justify your popping viewpoint or a specific phrase 'change one species to a different species' to support my view when there are so many other verses that are there stating that God grows plants, animals, and humans from their seed and He created each of us in the womb with the characteristics He wanted. The evidence that God did not pop new fully formed mature species into existence is right in front of you. It's like the YEs and your buddies have caused you to be mentally challenged and unable to comprehend what these verses are telling you or integrate them into your views. Evil or bad information like gossip, porn, hate literature can be just as addictive as substances like alcohol. The YE cult party line may have similarly poisoned your mind and its ability to accept other valid and truthful information as well as Bible verses. The mind savors all kinds of additions including cult comradery (and greatly biased data to support the cult's views) and they are hard to get rid of since the ego, and psyche, suffer their loss. This may be why you hold fast to certain Bible phrases but ignore and reject other verses that are most pertinent. I hope you can snap out of this addiction.

I was a little shocked that you were proud of me on my points regarding Darwinism. I have made similar points in my previous posts but you must have missed them. It seems to me that we only disagree on whether the God guided modifications necessary to create new species accumulated generation by generation through natural birth over a very long period of time, as opposed to your view that, all plant and animal kinds were popped into existence instantaneously in new fully formed and mature animals over a period of 3 24 hour days. Of course I take the former position based on proper exegesis of the Bible and the YEs hallucinate or invent the later position without any Biblical verses to support this claim. The YEs have never produced any rational Biblical evidence for popping animals and plants instantaneously into existence. We've addressed Ge 1 verses already, and a careful reading of all the words proved to be counter to your position on it about supporting instantaneous creation of all animal kinds. If there are others that you have found please identify them, otherwise we must assume your position is Biblically bankrupt. Also, if there are other differences, please let me know on which points in my last post that you disagree and why exactly, so that I can address them.

I believe the following is the primary issue: God popping out all plants an animals in three days using greatly accelerated laws of physics versus God manipulating genetic codes, controlling procreation of each individual species using nature, and using the earth and waters to bring forth (or grow) all kinds of plants and animals sequentually from a common ancestor over hundreds of millions of years. I've found hundreds of verses related to God controlling the procreation of animals, humans, and plants by bringing forth (Hebrew word yatsa) progeny from their 'seed' (Hebrew word zera). It is Biblically clear from these verses that God is involved with the reproduction and characteristics of every plant, animal, and human that ever existed as well as everyone that will be ever made.

Here again is my ninth point from the last referenced post below. It shows clearly shows that God generates all life forms by growing them from 'seed' and not by popping them into existence instantaneously.

'The authors of the Bible make many references to 'seed'; in the YLT the word was used 254 times and many were statements by God himself. In most cases it is to people and descendent nations of people, and at other times to plants, and other times to animals. Je 31:27, Is 59:21, Ge 1:11, Ge 3:15, Ge 7:3 & 1 Cor 15:38 I know this because I have read every one of these 254 verses. Even Jesus was referred to as a seed. Is 65:9 This common usage of the same word by God indicates a common viewpoint by him toward how all multicellular life is generated, the process of being grown to maturity from a seed (a fertilized single cell from the union of two parental gametes) based on the information that He controls and provides in each seed. God ties all life forms together symbolically and also documents for us the process that He used in this physically accurate expression. God and the prophets are letting us know that God uses the same process for making all life forms. This is overwhelming support for evolutionary creation and against popping animals into existence ex nihilo.'

Ps 89:29 And I have set his seed for ever, And his throne as the days of the heavens.

Jer 31:27 YLT Lo, days are coming, an affirmation of Jehovah, And I have sown the house of Israel, And the house of Judah, With seed of man, and seed of beast.

Is 61:9 YLT And known among nations hath been their seed, And their offspring in the midst of the peoples, All their beholders acknowledge them, For they [are] a seed Jehovah hath blessed.

I have also provided extensive posts on these topics and referencing the Biblical supporting verses as well. Yet, the YEs avoid and never respond to these verses and my claims based on these verses.

I think you see the conflicts between these verses with your view but are afraid to address them and are avoiding a response. If you had reasonable rebuttal to my points, I would expect to see them instead of the constant attempts at character assasination in your replies! Please, see the following post for more details:

1) Yatsá Verses Implying Natural Procreation
2) No Question That Ge 1 Describes Evolutionary Creation, Just How Do You Convolute It To Justify Your View?
3) No God Time?
4) Did God Really Say?
5) Biblical Evidence for Evolutionary Creationism for Dummys

If you add all this Biblical evidence together it equals NO POPPING OR INSTANTANEOUS CREATION OF ALL LIFE FORMS; INSTEAD GOD WORKS THROUGH NATURE, MAKE HIS DESIRED CHANGES TO ITS SEED, AND GROWS AND PRUNES ALL LIFE USING NATURE

You have a face saving way out though; join the battle against Darwinsts as an Evolutionary Creationist! In this way you can be both technically and Biblically correct as we battle the non-believers like Darwin setting the record straight on the side of truth.

For many years now, it has been obvious to me and others that unguided evolution is the real issue with Darwinism. Your erroneous YE views (1)the ridiculously short age of the earth, 2)death and decay starting after the original sin, and 3)your imagined divine opposition to create macro evolutionary jumps in genetic code) only serve as a distraction for addressing the real issue of whether God is in control or not. God said that He made everything, and the non-believer has looked from all angles to find a way to leave God out of it. Bret, as you said in your last post, God 'controls every single molecule'. If you carry this concept into reproduction, it puts God back in charge of the reproductive process and centers Him at the control of every change made to the genetic code, every allele expressed and which organisms will be capable of reproduction. This is in direct opposition to what Darwin postulated as a random chance event. If you read about the history of Darwinism, this is the same issue that the Catholic Church had and contemporaries of Charles Darwin like Asa Gray (friend of Darwin and early evolutionary creationist) and AR Wallace (co-inventor of the evolution concept) had with Charles Darwin's viewpoint. Darwin's contempories who were devote Christians insisted the natural processes of modification and selection that Darwin described were God guided natural ones and Darwin insisted that they were not, Darwin introduced the concept of modification by chance. That basically is where Darwin went wrong, since God tells us that nothing is left to chance because He foreknew everything that would happen.

You also have taken issue with one of the Biblical verses that I referenced. The Hebrew key words in Is 45:7 are

רע ברא
ברא Pronunciation Bará  'Definition: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
 רע -Pronunciation ra` Definition bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun:--adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Your original favorite versions the KJV, YLT, ASV each translate this Hebrew phrase as 'create evil' while you say 'create disaster'. I can only assume that your different translation is because of your position that God does not create evil. Below are the translation of the original Hebrew words. My position is that God made and continues to make everything with foreknowledge and some of that 'everything' was made to be 'evil'. God created Satan, Ahab, Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, serial killers, and other mass murders. God foreknew who they would turn out to be and did it anyway as part of his plan to teach his children about good and evil and consequently to accomplish a greater 'good' ultimately in the end. This is so that God would would have new sons and daughters that directly experience good and evil and are willing to make a conscious free will decision to overcome and reject this evil in their lives for eternity with God.

You obviously disagree with my position as well as God's statement recorded in the KJV, YLT, ASV Bible translations. Please explain why you disagree with this foundational statement that God made: He creates evil and he creates everything.


Lee

It wasn't the KOOL-AID that got me! ... It was the Ketel-One that I used to mix it with that took me out!
All kidding aside ... I'm going to have to agree with Lee on this one!
Darwin and the Bible don't mix !!!
Not only that ... but I'm proud of Lee for admitting that Darwin & Science don't mix as well ... !!!
I agree that God created ALL things GOOD !!!
And ... that God has total and complete control of every single molecule!

But ... when it comes to EVIL ... I tend to believe that it arose as a unwanted byproduct of Freewill?
Isaiah 45:7 is better translated "I bring prosperity and create disaster"(NIV) or "Causing well-being and creating calamity"(NASB)!

I read every single Bible verse that Lee listed (in multiple translations)... but just could NOT find ANYTHING that eluded to a "CHANGE"
from one Species to a different Species during the process of procreation?
In fact! ... God seemed to go out of His way (several times) to state that His creations would only reproduce after their "Own Kind" !!!
And ... every single piece of Scientific evidence seems to back up this assertion by God as well ... !!!
Of course ... there can be a lot of "variation" within these kinds ... as best shown by Man's artificial selection with the Dog kind!
But ... when you mate ANY two of these various breeds ... you ALWAYS end-up with just another Dog!
I've been intensely studying the "claims" of Evolution for over 20-years now! ... and I have yet to find a single Scientific Fact
to support the "theory" of Macro-Evolution !!! (Inference + Hyperbole ... a "Fact" does not make!)



2012Bret*

All biological life forms weren't a result of random chance mutations and natural selection as Darwin postulated. Instead the Bible tells us that God makes changes to the genetic code in all species during procreation generation by generation. God further establishes control on what life forms procreate by natural/divine selection and not unguided natural selection. I was surprised during the investigation of this topic about how well the Bible described this evolutionary process; one only needs to read the Bible in its entirety to see the widely distributed evidence on how God controls the process. It has become clear to those that have studied Darwin's history that Darwin intentionally was trying to introduce an atheistic concept into biological evolution as he (Darwin) did not believe in God's existence as he enlisted on the Beagle. Unfortunately for him and for huminity, Darwin's views are in direct conflict with many verses in the Bible. Below are verses that support the view that God created all things good and evil whereas Darwin proposed that the modifications over time were unguided and a result of chance.

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Jn 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Is 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last, I am he.
Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Yahweh, who does all these things.

As we clearly see from the verses above and contrary to what Charles Darwin claimed, God made everything including all biological life forms. So how did God do it and how was he involved in the process? Other Biblical statements clarify this and are listed in the following paragraphs.

Darwin insisted that the evolutionary process was unguided or undirected by God. Of course atheists would clearly take this view. However, the Bible in the verse below tells us that God has foreknowledge of the evolutionary process for His entire creation.

Is 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; 'I am' God, and there is none like me; 10declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not 'yet' done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

Here is a simple question for those Christian Darwinists: How can God declare 'the end from the beginning' and not have guided or pre-determined the result. There are a number of Christian theistic evolutionists supporting Darwin's unguided viewpoint that are in direct conflict with God's own statement which follows. It is clear to me that these theistic evolutionists haven't either read this verse, are misinterpreting it, or do not believe God's own statement. These people are responsible for misleading large number of Christians and the non-believing world!

Darwinists, claim that an unguided natural process determines which animals are selected to procreate or multiply in numbers. This is in direct conflict with several patriarch's and God's own statement in the verses below which clearly state that God control's the selection process. These verses indicate that God controls nature including the elements (like rain, lightning, wind), the selective ability for individuals to reproduce which is genetic or biological, and hierarchilogically based on the individual's and species importance to God.

Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: 30but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Ge 20:18 For the LORD had caused infertility to strike every woman in the household of Abimelech because he took Sarah, Abraham's wife. -
Ge 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.
Ex 14:21-22 NIV 21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the LORD drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

Darwin claimed that modifications in each generation resulted from parental characteristics being passed down generation by generation. Darwin claimed these modifications occurred by random chance and that the resulting rare beneficial modifications passed down would become dominant in the species due to the selective advantage that resulted. Although Darwin was correct about modifications being passed down generation by generation, this view is partially in conflict with the following Biblical statements because the Biblical statements disallow random chance determining either the modification or the selection of the individual for procreation. The Bible tells us that God guided each modification and whether each individual would procreate or not. The Bible tells us that God intentionally formed each creature by growing its seed naturally in the parent's womb into a new individual. Its seed (or embryo in the human species) was modified by God from its parent's genetic code as we now know. The primary issue between Darwin's view here and God's view is related to random chance vs divine plan. Darwinist's believe that chance or luck can replace the role of God. The Bible as well as good science tells us that Darwinism is not a truthful statement; God controls all events and what are thought to be chance outcomes are preplanned events or events that God directly planned at the beginning of the universe and has executed at a precise time throughout history. Random chance cannot replace design or guided modification of genetic code from a scientific basis. Statistically random chance fails the scientific test for the origination of life, proteins and processes with irreducible complexity, and the rapid divergence of multi-cellular life forms during the Cambrian Explosion among others. Only an omniscient designer or God possessed the skill to create the complex first life form, make the complex changes to it necessary to create the thousands of nano-machines in the biological cell, to incrementally devolop it into vast numbers of intricate and complex interdependent processes, and evolve the diverse array of biological life with each being unique on this planet. Random chance can't hold a candle to the blinding light of the Grand Designer who illuminated this world with the vast amount of information which created, reproduces, and governs all life forms.

1 Cor 15:38-39 YLT 38and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body. 39All flesh [is] not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;

When referring to the ostrich and behemoth, God made them as well as us by the same process but without wisdom:

Jb 39:17 NIV For God did not endow her with wisdom, or give her a share of good sense
Jb 40:15 NIV Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox

In the following verses, the Bible explains that God creates the individual in the womb and sometimes grows their descendents into nations.

Ge 25:23 ASV And Jehovah said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people. And the elder shall serve the younger.
Ps 139:13 NET Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother’s womb. ESV For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
Je 1:5 'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'
Is 46:3 ASV Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne by me from their birth, that have been carried from the womb

In the following verses, God tells us directly that He knows our every thought and can control our decisions and actions. The indicates that He can if desired, control the natural selection process. Consequently, natural selection is turned to divine/natural selection. Their is also strong evidence that God can influence the minds of bacteria, viruses, flies, locusts, frogs, birds and other animals as well to guide their behavior (Ex 9:2-4, Ex 8:20-21, Ex 10:4-6, Ex 16:13, 7:2, Lk 5:4-6). The accounts of Noah gathering pairs of animals, quail falling from the sky to cover the Hebrew camp ground in the desert, and Jesus causing the fish to enter His disciples nets, and plagues provide this evidence. God can clearly use both the human and animal mind to control events in this world which greatly impact the course of natural/divine selection. In this and other ways, He controls the evolutionary process.

2 Kings 19:27 But I know thy sitting down, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy raging against me.
Isaiah 37:7 Look, I will take control of his mind; he will receive a report and return to his own land. I will cut him down with a sword in his own land."'"
Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, probe into people's minds. I examine people's hearts. I deal with each person according to how he has behaved. I give them what they deserve based on what they have done.

It seems to me and other Evolutionary Creationsists that Darwin got only one point right. God evolved all plants and creatures through procreation, generation by generation, using the earth, waters, thought control, and natural elements to do it. When the Biblical statements are understood, integrated into a meaningful concept as to how life was created on the earth, and compared with Darwinism, we are left with the following phrase: The Origin of the Species According to the Original Plan by Means of Divine Modification and Selection. Here is a verse (the only verse I could find) that actually supports the small portion of Darwin's views that he got right. It is sad, that he didn't read, understand, or believe the remainder of the Bible.

Ge 1:11 ....., `Let the earth yield tender grass, herb sowing seed, fruit-tree (whose seed [is] in itself) making fruit after its kind, on the earth:' and it is so.
12And the earth bringeth forth tender grass, herb sowing seed after its kind, and tree making fruit (whose seed [is] in itself) after its kind; ....

It is a false teaching for the secular community and many Christians to claim that Darwinism is true and proven. This claim ignores the fact that random chance modification of genetic codes when analyzed scientifically will not support the actual historical time frames during the creation of life nor the Cambrian Explosion, nor the near impossibility of getting a molecular motor (or many other nanomachines) that exudes irreducible complexity by periodic random mutations. God must have guided these supposed random events to make sense of what we observe according to the time frames recorded in history.

Lee

...
Why do so many English speaking people write 'of' where they should write 'have'?
(but his cult must of forced him to finish it off.)
Is this the devolution of the English language?

All,

It looks like Bret acted on his statement and drank the rest of his cup of KOOL-AID. What a shame! I tried to talk him out of it, but his cult must have forced him to finish it off. It now seems there is no one that will try to defend the cult's popping into existence view for the great diversity of life on this planet. Lucien and Stu, haven't provided anything of substance or Biblical verses either to support their view. What a pity! It looks like an excellently played out hoax and distortion of the Bible as it was described by our ICR and 'traditional' posters. So we now have to wait for a new defender of the ICR (or YE) and 'traditional' position; one that can actually defend their position logically and Biblically. Oh well, this is nothing new, it has been going on for three years now. It seems there is no Biblical or reality based case for what they believe; what they presented so far are clear distortions and bad exegesis based on misreading and misrepresentation of Biblical verses.

In the meantime, I will continue the climb of Mt. Impossible alone if necessary. This mission is too important to abandon! Evidently, I am the only one that thinks so and willing to take the abuse that accompanies the journey.

Lee

Snap out of it Bret! You're not in touch with reality! It seems you've consumed some of the Kool-Aid already. It's starting to affect your mind and your ability to logically analyze reality. 

Your statements indicate a lack of knowledge related to the history of languages, history of the Bible, and the immense differences in views held by people living throughout history related to creation.  The following paragraphs explain this.

Just because 'Day' normally applies to a human day of 24 hours doesn't mean that  it applies to all cases of it's usage, especially in terms of God's 'Days' of creation in chapter 1 of Genesis.   

Contrary to your statement,  there are many 'sheeople', as you call them, that believe that these days are extended periods of time.  Many people believe that these days are symbolically used here in reference to human work days and our seven day week.  Please read the Presbyterian Church in America Report of the Creation Study Committee, June 2000 or the Westminster Theological Seminary and the Days of Creation statement (1999) to see how your viewpoint is invalid.  

http://www.pcahistory.org/creation/report.html
http://www.wts.edu/about/beliefs/statements/creation.html

It is mostly the cultish Morris followers in the ICR that insist that God's 'Day' in Genesis 1 must strictly be a 24-hour day. 

Furthermore, you must to be hallucinating now as I have never ever even entertained your view below.  It seems you've made another irrational and brash statement while in the ICR zombielike state while attempting another character assassination of me:

Bret: "When someone comes along thousands of years later ... and says with indignant absolution that EVERYONE else on this planet has gotten it wrong."

People through the ages have not always believed  the Genesis 1 Hebrew 'yowm' usage meant a 24 hour day as you fallaciously state.  There were many views expressed as to how long these 'days' were; St. Augustine for one expressed great confusion on this topic in his writings. 

From the report: "Augustine, himself, as is well known, states in connection with the days of Genesis 1, "What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible for us to conceive."(1)

Anselm may be read to follow this lead in his supposition that "the 'days' of Moses' account ... are not to be equated with the days in which we live."(2)"

I have already stated that I support the use of 'day' in Genesis 1 as it can mean several lengths of time. The definition of 'day' meaning 24 hours is relatively recent in English speaking history. The English word 'day' has not existed for thousands of years nor has it meant 24 hours only over history as you state above.  Several languages predated the  modern English versions we read today:  Hebrew, Latin, Greek including variations within each language over several thousand years.   'Day' meaning 24 hours was not used in these languages. Its translation in Genesis 1 to the modern word English word 'day' and widespread usage of the word 'day' is  based on the Hebrew word 'Yowm'  including earlier Latin and greek translations of it when  Miles Cloverdale published the first English translation in 1535 AD.  The printing press made the Bible accessible to large numbers of English speaking people.  Prior to that, the Latin Vulgate version was spoken in English churches since the Bible had limited access.  This is less than 600 years ago not thousands as you state.  Check out my previous post, a modern dictionary to look at all of the definitions of the word 'day' and the Wikipedia link for the pertinent history.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

Secondly my indignant posts only applies to your rigid  ICR interpretation of the word 'day' meaning only 24 hours.   Most of the world's population, many Biblical scholars, and virtually all scientists disagree with your interpretation of the Bible on this point.  It is the ICR and their Young Earth followers saying with absolute indignation that EVERYONE else is wrong.

I see you're intent on knocking me off the mountain into the Abyss of Young Earth Creationism. However, I am not giving up with the climb of Mount Impossible.  I plead with you to not drive your bus full of YE followers like a zombie over the precipice into the abyss.  Reality is too important for me to ignore and I'm watching your every move to avoid your throwing me under it while on your way to oblivion.  

We debated the age of the earth for over two years where you had plenty of opportunity to provide your irrationale, it is time to stop pestering us with this nonsense again.   I plan to ignore your endless banter on this front henceforth. I hope you don't mind if I focus on 'natural God guided evolution' from here out since that is how God himself said that he created living things and clearly states his involvement.  (GE 1:11-12, GE 1:20-21, GE 1:24-25, Is 41:4. Job 38:41, Is 29:16, Is 40:21-26, Is 43:1, Mt 10:29,  1Cor 15:38-39, GE 20:18, GE 7:4, Je 1:5,  Is 4:24, Jb 31:15, GE 24:23,  Jb 39:17,  Lk 1:35, and many other verses. It is up to you to defend your popping view if you disagree with His statements of guided and controlled evolution referenced above.  

You may claim he pops things into existence but God himself and the Bible state that he evolves everything generation by generation and controls whether they live, die, and procreate. You need to jump off the YE bus and stop drinking Kool Aid while you still have some brain tissue left.  

Lee

Quotes from Reports
Excerpt from the Westminster Statement: “In the fourteen centuries prior to the Westminster Assembly numerous commentaries on the days of creation in Genesis 1-2 were produced. Frank Egleston Robbins in his The Hexaemeral Literature: A Study of the Greek and Latin Commentaries on Genesis (Chicago: U. of Chicago Press, 1912) lists more than 130 authors of works on the six days of creation from Origen in the 3rd century to John Milton in the 17th century.1 Robert Letham in his more recent article “‘In the Space of Six Days’: The Days of Creation from Origen to the Westminster Assembly,” Westminster Theological Journal 61:2 (Fall 1999), adds several more to the list, including many whose writings the Westminster Divines would have known.
Out of all of this literature it is possible to distinguish two general schools of thought on the nature of the six days. One class of interpreters tends to interpret the days figuratively or allegorically (e.g., Origen and Augustine), while another class interprets the days as normal calendar days (e.g., Basil, Ambrose, Bede and Calvin). From the early church, however, the views of Origen, Basil, Augustine and Bede seem to have had the greatest influence on later thinking. While they vary in their interpretation of the days, all recognize the difficulty presented by the creation of the sun on the fourth day.”
 
Excerpt from the PCA report: “The Committee has been unable to come to unanimity over the nature and duration of the creation days.”

Let's take 100 grade-school kids ...
& then 100 kids from middle-school ...
add in 100 more from high-school ...
joined by 100 college flunkies ...
capped-off by a final 100 grad-students!


How many of them would tell you that "Back in the Day"...
means an undefined period of time from a past era?

How many of them would tell you that "it seemed hotter during the Day"...
means during the daylight hours of a regular Day?

How many of them would tell you that "when we traveled the 7 Days across the desert"...
means 7 regular 24-hour Days of traveling?


I would say (even with our inept educational system)... that "500" out of "500" of them would get this right!

That is why EVERY SINGLE PERSON who ever published a translation of the Bible has ALWAYS used the word "Day"
in the OBVIOUS context of a normal regular standard usual "Day"... when translating Genesis !!!

When someone comes along thousands of years later ... and says with indignant absolution that EVERYONE else
on this planet has gotten it wrong! There is ALWAYS a small group of defiant "sheeople" (blind followers)...
that will drink this poison kool-aid right to the grave!

Sadly ... the ONLY thing that's weaker than the Biblical support for "Darwinian" Evolution (even if you pretend that God drove the bloody Bus)...
is the failed and flawed Science that pretends to support the non-existent evidence in favor of Academia's Greatest Grift !!!



2012Bret*

Bret,

You make statements, but they are flawed, incomplete, or biased every time I check them out. In this case, I checked your statistics related to the use of 'yowm'. You seem to forget to mention that yowm is used 2185 times in the old testament and in genesis alone it was translated to other English words like time, month, season, full, and forever in 8 different cases for the KJV.[GE 29:14, 38:12, 39:11, 40:4, 41:1, 43:9, 44:32, 47:29]. The YE view is also based on flimsy and weak evidence from the Bible regarding the using of 'evening' and 'morning' with 'day' and a statistical analysis to try to make an iron clad case and insist that all the usages of day must mean 24 hours. This is in spite of the fact that 'yowm' has had multiple meanings related to time and daylight throughout history and is translated differently in various versions of the Bible. The translater for the KJV and later versions chose 'day' since it conveys the proper concept to the English reader: an indefinite period of time that symbolizes a portion of all time that God created for our universe. This is similar to our current definition of day such as 'day of the dinosaur' or our 'grandfather's day'. Your 1109 cases of yowm translated to day may be accurate, although I didn't check it, but the part about only 9 cases meaning longer than 24 hours must be way off. I found many examples in Genesis alone that it refers to life times of people, God's DAYS, and periods of time in certain people's lifetimes. Although, in your defense, most often, yowm is translated to 'day' because the context outside of Ge 1 or 2 is about a 24 hour day as it relates to peoples lives and is used in that context, it is also translated to 'day' when meaning a longer period of time as in Ge 6:4 for example like in our grandfather's day and in other cases like in 'all his days' with the numbers of years they lived next to it. To get only 9 occurrences of day meaning a longer time than 24 hour out of all of the translations of 'yowm' to the word 'day' appears as extreme distortion of the facts if not an outright LIE (Liberal Interpretive Exegesis). There are many more than nine cases in Genesis alone. Who does your accounting, Bernie Made-off? Also, you failed to address my major points against this 24 hour only interpretation. Do you just address those topics that you have a half-baked answer for or answer the hard questions sometimes? So far you have provided only very flimsy evidence your It-can-only-mean-a-24-hour-day concept. However, you seem to be out of ammunition as it is the only real piece of any evidence that I have seen in nearly three years of debating. Your strategy seems to always keep going back to this when the climbing get difficult moving us closer to the precipice. How about answering the tough questions that I have set before you in my previous posts. Why can't God's DAY just be symbolic of our human day? What was the reference for the spinning earth for the 24 hour periods on Days 1, 2, 3 (according to your view) before the sun, moon, and stars existed? I have given you lots of questions to respond to in my recent posts that shows your view is irrational, have a go at them. If you honestly answer them, I think you will see that the 24 hour day only interpretation of yowm in Ge 1 and 2 is an irrational viewpoint.

When you claim that God spoke plants and animals into existence, you know as well as I do, that you implying a miraculous nearly instantaneous creation of all plant and animal kinds in great numbers since none of them can reproduce naturally in a 24 hour day. There is no denying that God 'said' the creation was to occur, but you have ignored, as usual, what God said in the remainder of the verse: the waters and earth produced them, they were not an instantaneous creation as you imply. This took a great deal of time since it wasn't God that made or produced them, it was the earth and waters that He created earlier that made them by natural means. Your mockery of my wording does not address the issue that you continually avoid. God is saying that He didn't 'bara' or pop them into existence, instead He LET the earth and water bring them into existence. How did the earth and waters make all of the plants and animals? Since they don't have God's powers they can't pop them into existence. God is telling us here that all of the plants and animals evolved naturally under His guidance, NOT MIRACULOUSLY POPPED INTO EXISTENCE. This is called evolutionary creation in case you are unfamiliar with the term.

I pointed out numerous verses that indicate that God has a predetermined plan that creates every living organism with foreknowledge of its characteristics through each individual plant and animal's seed and you refer to it as procreation. You mock me again asking if I know the difference between evolution and procreation. Well, I must ask you then if you know the difference and also between evolutionary creation and Darwinism? It seems that you don't. If God guides the procreation and the selection as I continually advocate, then what you call procreation suddenly becomes the same as evolutionary creation. Furthermore, as I have pointed out many times through various verses, God describes His involvement in the procreation process since God determined and formed the characteristics of every 'seed' that has ever existed. Please read again the passages that I've cited and look for God's involvement in each. It is clear from studying these verses that He tuned the characteristics (using genetic code) of each creature and organism and diverged these characteristics into the various kinds and species, generation by generation, according to His will and populated the earth with them. He also determined whether every plant, animal or human would procreate or not and whether their descendents would prosper or become extinct. This is the evolutionary guidance that I have referred to above. Your view claims that He popped various kinds of animals and plants instantaneously ex nihilo without letting the earth and waters play a role as the Bible describes. You have also claimed that the ex nihilo genetic information limits the procreation of the various kinds into other kinds, like God would have to pop a new 'kind' into existence miraculously if a new kind were to be discovered to exist. It seems to me that you are ignoring what the Bible is clearly stating.

I am glad to see that you are starting to address the points I have been making and using some technical analysis to support your points by the way. Be careful of your mockery and character assassination however, God doesn't think kindly of it.

All,
I have not implied that the various translations of the Bible are derelict of the truth as Bret states. On the contrary, I have used many verses from the existing translations to make a strong case for an old earth, fixed laws of nature, and evolutionary creation. I am saying that the ICR interpretation of the various versions of the Bible is derelict to the truth and I have provided the appropriate verses to correct the flawed view. As I stated in my previous posts, the mind of man is fallible and flawed. It sometimes reaches flawed conclusions when assessing the facts about nature as Bret has already agreed with me about. But it also can reach, flawed conclusions related to the interpretation of the Bible.

The ICR promoted YE view is a perfect example. Even though the old age of the earth has been proven for a century starting with Charles Lyle with many others contributed to its validity, the ICR and other organizations continue reject this truth. Furthermore, God's selected authors put together a fairly good description of how God created the animals and plants through evolution and the YE ignores the verses in favor of their conceived human notion of popping miraculously all of the various kinds, and species into existence miraculously. The YE also seems to ignore every true biological fact discovered about nature in reaching this fallacious view. The ICR and their YE followers incorrectly interpret verses of the Bible and the various facts undercovered from nature to put together a convoluted and distorted picture on how the universe, earth, plants and animals filled the earth in only 7-24 hour days and having God pop miraculously, the sun, stars, continents, oceans, all plants, all animals, and the first two humans out of nothing or dust or flesh. This is exactly what a cult does and then they collectively try to destroy or eliminate others that disagree with them.

Based on my experiences, here on this blog, the ICR, founded by Dr Henry Morris, and its YE supporters appear to be more of a cult that resembles those followers of 'Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Jim Jones, & David Koresh' than any secular scientific group exploring the origins of the universe, geophysics, or life forms that inhabit this planet. I haven't found anything of substance in their claims or in the Biblical verses they claim to support their views.

I am very happy that we are having this debate, as it exposes how much of a cult they are and how Biblically unfounded their views are. While climbing, if they offer us any Kool-aid, I am not planning to drink it. I hopefully can continue resisting their attempts to drag me over the precipice into the abyss of The 'Age of the Earth' again. It is difficult though as they tend to gang up on me, distract, and attack when I'm not expecting it.

Lee

You last post Bret, is Ludicrously Interestingly Eloquently Stated.

Here is another one for you guys:
Lucien Is Extremely Sinful
And let me tell you, if that wasn't true, I wouldn't need Jesus, but I do!


L

Absurd-LEE ...


[Bret] "The Bible basically says that God spoke things into existence!"
[Lee] "The Bible does not state that! The Bible states the God said let the earth and waters bring forth the plants and animals into existence! Read it! There you go distorting what the Bible actually states again."

WHAT?
"The Bible states that GOD SAID" !!!
Yeah! ... you're right ... there I go distorting again ???

Next ... [Lee] "God describes evolution in the Bible." "God produces/brings forth (or 'yatsa's) nations, specific people, plants, animals from their parents seed and from the womb or belly."

WHAT?
Do you know the difference between "Evolution" vs. "Procreation" ???
All of your (so-called) Scriptural evidence for Evolution is nothing more than a bunch of verses referring to reproduction and birth? (after THEIR own kind!)

Then ... [Lee] "When you refer to my direct Biblical quotes mostly from the KJV, the ASV, and the YLT as 'LIES', you come very close to totally discrediting yourself and labeling yourself as a heretic."

WHAT?
I said the following: "Before you submit your "Lee's International Evolutionary Science" translation of the Bible to the publisher ..."
"Well ... maybe it is finally time for a gutsy NEW translation that changes the DAYS of Genesis
into "Billions of Years" ??? I can hardly wait to add your new "LIES" translation right up there with my "NASB" & "KJV" versions!"

Finally ... [Lee] "The Hebrew word 'yowm' is translated many ways in the bible to mean different fixed time periods, periods of daylight and not just meaning a 24 hour day as you have falliciously stated '999 out of a 1000 times'."

O.K.! ... you got me this time?
In the Old Testament "yom" is translated to mean a 24 hour day "1109" times!
It appears to mean a longer period of time a maximum of "9" times
(So ... I should have said '1100 out of 1109 times')
But ... NONE of these exceptions share a single contextual similarity with "Days" of Creation!

-Outside of Genesis 1, "yom" is used with a number 359 times, and each time it means an ordinary day!
-Outside of Genesis 1, "yom" is used with the word “evening” or “morning” 23 times. “Evening” and “morning” appear in association, but without yom, 38 times.
All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day!
-In Genesis 1:5, "yom" occurs in context with the word “night.” Outside of Genesis 1, “night” is used with yom 53 times, and each time it means an ordinary day!
-There are words in biblical Hebrew (such as "olam" or "qedem") that are very suitable for communicating long periods of time, or indefinite time, but none of these words are used in Genesis 1!

-Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University), who himself does not believe Genesis is true history, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that:

"So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark."

Like I've said before Lee ... you're implying that EVERY translation of the Bible over 1000's of years is derelict to the truth!
Which puts you in a scary Club with the following members:
*** Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Jim Jones, & David Koresh! ***
(just to mention a few!)



2012Bret*

The Monday after Superbowl Sunday!
The Biola Bowl? ... A 2-hour debate over the thoughts & opinions of a mortal (flawed) man!
Since I was unable to attend ... I will have to let Stu counter any inaccuracy that Lee (may) have conveyed?
Don't get me wrong here? ... I'm NOT implying that Lee may be lying about what happened ... but as we all know ...
there are always (at least) three different views of every event! ...
Your view! ... My view! ... and what actually happened!

If Mr. Lewis did believe in biological common descent? ... then he was just plainly WRONG !!!
C.S. Lewis was NOT an Apologist nor a Scientist! He was a very gifted writer when it came to explaining the Christian Faith
in a unique ... but very understandable way!
If ... by "common descent" he meant that we (the Creation) ALL shared a common Creator? ... Then he nailed it !!!
The verses that Lee stated at the end of his last Post are excellent proof that God (and God alone!) had, has, & will always have ...
TOTAL control of EVERYTHING ... because He created EVERYTHING that exists exactly the way that He wanted it to be !!!

Lewis was a strong ally of science and viewed it as God's second book. However, according to Lewis, science and it's processes are subservient to the mind and subject to the same human weaknesses. Consequently, additional truths can be obtained from nature, but the interpretation of these truths by the human mind needs to proceed with caution and subservient to philosophy.

I could not agree more!
Man has been misreading the remnants of God's creation ever since the 2-Chucks wrote a couple of Books after drinking too much 2-buck Chuck!
(answer key: Lyell, Darwin, & Cheap Wine!)
When the Bible says something and Man's interpretation (best guess?)... of the Scientific evidence says something contradictory ...
then 100-times out of 100 ... the Bible is RIGHT! ... and Man eventually realizes that he's made a mistake !!!

It sounds to me ... like Team OE ... from eye-to-eye ... can no longer see?



2012Bret*

There was a debate at Biola on the views that CS Lewis held related to evolution and creation last Monday night that I attended with over a hundred other people. The two debaters had studied CS Lewis' books and letters extensively during their lifetimes and had somewhat different ideas related to the viewpoint that CS Lewis held. The debate lasted for almost two hours, so I will only provide a synopsis here of the main points.

CS Lewis is viewed by many Christians as one of the greatest evangelists in the 20th century. In Stu's recent mock court case, CS Lewis was referenced several times to justify his fictional and blasphemous statements made by prophets and the Lord himself against my views related to evolutionary creation and other's views related to theistic evolution. I think it is important to document here, what CS Lewis believed relating to this evolution/creation topic.

1) Both debaters agreed that CS Lewis believed that natural descent from a common single ancestor was the way that God created all life forms (including humans). CS Lewis referred to a natural God guided process that God used to perfect of the forms with the human as God's pinnacle of creation. CS Lewis did not believe in 'special' creation (that the animals, plants, or humans were created miraculously out of nothing or directly from dust).
2) There was disagreement between the debaters related to the level of contingency (or random chance) that CS Lewis believed that God allows in His creation of the various forms of life. Both debaters thought that CS Lewis believed that the process was God guided but contained some level of chance and couldn't agree on the level of guidance or control that CS Lewis believed God had in creating the various forms. My take from this is that Lewis' views seem to fall somewhere in the theistic evolution camp but closer to totally God guided predetermined evolutionary creation version that I believe than the unguided and totally contingent Darwinian view that Ken Miller and Francis Collins promote.
3) One debater (Peterson) made the case that CS Lewis believed in methodological naturalism but battled against philosophical naturalism. Lewis was a strong ally of science and viewed the natural world as God's second book. However, according to Lewis, science and it's processes are subservient to the mind and subject to the same human weaknesses. Consequently, additional truths can be obtained from nature, but the interpretation of these truths by the human mind needs to proceed with caution and subservient to philosophy.
4) The other debater (West) made a strong point that the Bible is not compatible with creation views that permit chance outcomes of the various animal forms. I have pointed these verses out in my posts.

When Stu shook my hand at the end of the debate, I told him that I felt totally exonerated based on the CS Lewis views expressed and surprised at how much our views toward evolutionary creation agree (where we disagree is that Lewis seems to support random chance in his version of the evolutionary creation process). Stu seemed miffed, turned and walked away while exclaiming that we didn't attend the same debate. I assured him that we did. I am really interested in what different message from the above that he walked away with but may never get a response. There is no doubt that Lewis believed in descent from a common ancestor for all life forms. The only question is related to the degree of contingency or chance in the God guided evolutionary process and how Lewis justifies this view when the Bible states the following.

Is 46:9 YLT Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; 'I am' God, and there is none like me; 10declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not 'yet' done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
Col 1:16 YLT because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Jn 1:3 YLT all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

Bret,

[Bret] "The Bible basically says that God spoke things into existence!"
The Bible does not state that! The Bible states the God said let the earth and waters bring forth the plants and animals into existence! Read it! There you go distorting what the Bible actually states again.

God describes evolution in the Bible. The word 'evolution' didn't exist during the time the Old Testament was written. However, the Hebrew word 'bara' did exist and was not used to describe the creation of plants, animals or humans. There are plenty of verses however, that describe how God produces/brings forth (or 'yatsa's) nations, specific people, plants, animals from their parents seed and from the womb or belly. God also uses the same word 'yatsa' in Genesis 1. Read my posts!

When you refer to my direct Biblical quotes mostly from the KJV, the ASV, and the YLT as 'LIES', you come very close to totally discrediting yourself and labeling yourself as a heretic. I have made my case from quotes directly from existing commonly accepted versions of the Bible, yet you haven't and continually fail to address my Biblical points that counter your claims. You disappear from posting weeks at a time and never address them. The existing Bible versions are quite adequate to deal with the distortions that the YEs have canonized. Your reluctance to address them also indicates that you likely are not able to, and now are turning in desparation to outrageous slanderous remarks and irrelevant points that have no basis whatsoever in addressing evolutionary creation as the Bible indicates is God's method.

In spite of the contempt you dish out at my insightful Biblical views, of course I'm glad that you have come out of your coma and posted finally.  I enjoy debating and find it boring posting my views and getting no meaningful replies with any Biblical substance.  While many of your past replies just contain excuses for not posting, your last one actually has some substance and is worthy of addressing albeit easily dismissed.  I will refer to it as BALONEY:  
Bret's Absolute Limit On Numerous Earth Years (BALONEY). 

First, let me state that part of your analysis is correct.  The Hebrew terms have been translated properly and they do mean evening and morning in most Biblical verses. This is some slight support for your view that a day is one rotational period of the earth. What you haven't considered, however, is all of the other verses that I have already referenced for you that contradict this view. It seems you also have totally ignored the points I made in ' No God Time?' to arrive at this irrational view that a Ge 1 'Day' must be 24 hours. The Bible must be taken as a whole and studied to gain a proper interpretation. 'Evening' and 'morning' could be used here by the God-inspired author to symbolically mean a dusk and dawn of one of God's DAYS (which is much different than an earth day). Most biblical scholars agree with this day/age view and are not found on skid row as you suggest. There is also the widely accepted view that the use of evening and morning for each of the 'days' of creation 'week' are simply to establish an association between a human work week and God's work 'WEEK' where we need to rest one out of seven days, learn and reflect on His teachings, and give praise to the Lord for providing so much to us.

To insist that the use of 'evening' and 'morning' in these Ge 1 biblical verses forces the interpretation of 'yowm' or 'day' to mean only 24 hours is extremely narrow minded considering the other possibilities and again fails to consider the extensive symbology used throughout the Bible. The Hebrew word 'yowm' is translated many ways in the bible to mean different fixed time periods, periods of daylight and not just meaning a 24 hour day as you have falliciously stated '999 out of a 1000 times'. This YE view is a very niave and demonstrates a lack biblical exegesis. Review the usages of yowm in the Hebrew bible and you will quickly discover this. Dave even gave you a nice post on this twice over the last three years.

I had hoped that we could move on from the day-age debate to address evolution and creation, however, it seems the points you're now making are pulling us down the mountain into the same abyss that we spent two years climbing out. It seems you're at loss to address the Biblical points that I made and I hope that you will still address them, but please don't try to sabotage the mission here. We are exploring Everest (evolution-creation) this year and not the jungles of India (day-age).

Lee

Lee ...


Your relentless insistence that the Historically Accurate reading of the Bible relies on finding
a passage that can clearly (and ONLY)... be translated into meaning "popped"... is the best example
of a "Straw Man" argument that I have ever come across!

I could easily counter with insisting that you produce a passage that can clearly (and ONLY)...
be translated into meaning "Evolved" !!!

The FACT that "popped" & "Evolved" both fail to exist in the Scriptures means that it is time for
YOU to tell your campaign super-PAC to STOP airing this same-old (tired) red-herring!

The Bible basically says that God spoke things into existence!
I guess the real question is ... how long does it take God to finish a sentence?

Before you submit your "Lee's International Evolutionary Science" translation of the Bible to the publisher ...
you're going to have to gather plenty of whole-cloth to create a viable explanation on how everyone is
supposed to ignore the repeated phrase "and there was Evening, and there was Morning" = One Day !!!

Even though 999 out of 1000 times ... the word that is translated into "Day" means a regular ordinary Day ...
I understand that YOU believe it is more logical to go with that one time that it may mean something more ambiguous!
But ... I'm sure that's why God knew that He needed to be overly redundant by prefacing EACH & EVERY "Day"
with the reference of an EVENING & a MORNING !!!
You see ... the words:

‘e·reḇ
עֶ֥רֶב
evening

and

ḇō·qer
בֹ֖קֶר
morning

can ONLY be translated into words meaning EXACTLY the same thing 100% of the time !!!
You'll need to go to Skid-Row or maybe an Insane Asylum to find a Hebrew Scholar that
would agree that these words can be translated into meaning "beginning & ending"?

I'm sure that this is why with 100's of translations of the Bible ... that NONE of them
are translated into saying anything other than DAYS!

Well ... maybe it is finally time for a gutsy NEW translation that changes the DAYS of Genesis
into "Billions of Years" ???

I can hardly wait to add your new "LIES" translation right up there with my "NASB" & "KJV" versions!



2012Bret*

All,

Although some of the differences between Darwinian Evolution and Biblical methodology of evolutionary creationism have been addressed, a summary and clarification is desirable to distinguish where God and Darwin disagree on the methodology of creating all life forms on earth. To gain better insight of Darwin's views, one should read Darwin's book The Origin of Species

Descent with Modification from a Common Ancestor
Darwin imagined that an original common ancestor, came into being in a warm little pond that contained just the right chemical ingrediants early in the earth's history. He believed that a small modification in each generation of plant or animal occasionally would enhance its chances of survival, whereas many changes in a single generation would likely result in its death or monstrous characteristics of the life form. He believed that the changes that benefitted the individual animal and its offspring in their specific enviroment would increase their chances of survival and therefore this group would become the new dominant type. He believed that these changes accummulated over long periods of time and that these changes slowly diverged into the radically different forms of life. According to this view, these accummulated modifications would eventually prevent inter-species cross-breeding. He thought an extremely old earth was necessary for the divergence of this common ancestor generation by generation into the many forms of life witnessed in the fossil record and those known to exist in his generation. Much to the dismay of the theologians at that time, he was convinced that these modifications occurred by chance in nature and against their view that they were God guided.

Natural Selection
Based on his own experience with breeding plants and cross breeding new varieties, Darwin surmised that a similar process was likely occuring in nature that was not supernaturally guided as theologians for centuries had been claiming. He believed procreation of each species was based on unguided naturally occurring secondary causes alone: a species specific competition for survival of each plant and animal within its own particular environment and among the other plants and animals that inhabit the local environment. Each individual organism's survival was dependent only on it's inherited characteristics, nature and chance.

Basically, Darwin's theory dismissed God from having any control over which modifications were made to their genetic code or the process of which plants and animals live or die. He quickly became the atheist's hero and has been ever since.

What was Darwin thinking? I don't believe for a Godly man that studied theology, that he read and understood the Bible very well. He even had the benefit of theological training at Christ's College at Cambridge University before his trip on the Beagle to help him understand God's Word. For some reason, he did not either didn't study the biblical verses on this subject or believe them. Here are again some of the key verses from the YLT version unless noted that indicate that God is in control of evolution and which animals (or plants) live or die.

God provides for all his creations:
Jb 38:14 Who doth prepare for a raven his provision, When his young ones cry unto God? They wander without food.

God made everything:
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Jn 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

God's Foreknowledge of His Entire Creation:
Is 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; 'I am' God, and there is none like me; 10declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not 'yet' done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;

God controls the existence of all beings in the sequence stated in Ge 1 and living throughout history.
See Ge 1
Is 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last, I am he.
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

God's involvment with the evolution process:
Is 40:21 Have ye not known? have yet not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22'It is' he that sitteth above the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in; 23that bringeth princes to nothing; that maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24Yea, they have not been planted; yea, they have not been sown; yea, their stock hath not taken root in the earth: moreover he bloweth upon them, and they wither, and the whirlwind taketh them away as stubble. ... 26Lift up your eyes on high, and see who hath created these, that bringeth out their host by number; he calleth them all by name; by the greatness of his might, and for that he is strong in power, not one is lacking.
Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: 30but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
1 Cor 15:38-39 YLT 38and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body. 39All flesh [is] not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
Ge 20:18 For the LORD had caused infertility to strike every woman in the household of Abimelech because he took Sarah, Abraham's wife.

God controls the weather and elements
Ge 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.
1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of Jehovah; and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken. -
1 Kings 18:38Then the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

God intentionally formed each creature's genetic code together in the womb including His own as Jesus
Ps 139:13 NET Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother’s womb. ESV For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.
Je 1:5 'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'
Jb 40:15 YLT Lo, I pray thee, Behemoth, that I made with thee: Grass as an ox he eateth. ASV 15 Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox.
Is 44:2 ASV Thus saith Jehovah that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen
Is 44:24 ASVThus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);
Is 46:3 ASV Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne by me from their birth, that have been carried from the womb
Jb 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?
Ge 25:23 ASV And Jehovah said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people. And the elder shall serve the younger.
Luke 1:35And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit,42
and spake out with a loud voice, and said, `Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb;

God made other animals without wisdom and understanding:
Jb 39:17- For God hath caused her to forget wisdom, And He hath not given a portion To her in understanding

God knows our every thought and can control them:
Isaiah 37:7 Look, I will take control of his mind; he will receive a report and return to his own land. I will cut him down with a sword in his own land."'"
Jeremiah 17:10 I, the LORD, probe into people's minds. I examine people's hearts. I deal with each person according to how he has behaved. I give them what they deserve based on what they have done.

It is exceedingly clear from the above Biblical statements that Darwin wandered off the reservation and promoted the concept of chance, nature, and contingency as a new ungodly image to worship for those seekers of spiritual freedom. It's odd that he was buried in Westminster Abbey along with Isaac Newton who was a Christian to the end and honored Him as the Designer. In fairness to Darwin though, I don't really think that he knew the extent or consequences of his mistake in not recognizing that God controlled the descent with modification and that He controls Nature and nature's 'laws' which performs the selection.

What Did Darwin Get Right?
Just about everything else! He correctly assessed the natural creation process for geographical variation and isolation in nature, old age of the earth, inherited characteristics passed from parents to offspring, accummulation of modifications over many generations, inability of largely different species to cross-breed, and common ancestry. His major error was not realizing or rejecting that God is in control of the descent with modification as well as the selection process. Scientific studies have concluded that random chance is not up the job of either creating life in the first place or diversifying it into the plethora of life forms that have inhabited the earth over its history. The non-believers don't want that to be known though, as Darwinism is their new deity and they object to the truth being told. Oh well, there will always be those that want spiritual freedom, self absorption, and a personalized heaven for eternity. They are unaware, they will not get what they want so desperately. Meanwhile, the war against God rages on; led by Satan, started by envy and deceit, fueled by ignorance, pride and misunderstanding, and with many of His lost children forming the ranks. Yet after many centuries of battle, here I and others in a new generation, stand ready on God's side to defend the truth and shine a light for the lost to find their way. There is only one true history of the earth, in spite of the lies Satan and his army spreads to the contrary. The Bible and Nature, both creations of God, display it for all to see. If only my adversaries took the time to study and comprehend both and accept its truth.

Lee

My fellow debaters seem to have either deserted the battle or gone into hiding (making excuses for not posting). It wasn't wise to wage war without either having some Biblical ammunition or knowing where to find it. All they had to do was support their own positions biblically but it seems they could not with reasonable exegesis using actual verses. Instead, they invented fiction including blasphemy to make there fictional and unfounded case against God guided evolution (evolutionary creation).
Maybe the war was too much for them and they were dazed based on my recent shock and awe strategy with many verses listed supporting evolutionary creation.  

For those recently joining us, these are the key posts:

1) No Question That Ge 1 Describes Evolutionary Creation, Just How Do You Convolute It Justify Your View?
2) Did God Really Say? + Another Victory Lap 
3) Poor Justification for Concluding Instantaneous Popping  of Animals By A Traditionalist
4) Biblical Evidence of Evolutionary Creationism For Dummys

They probably hadn't anticipated so much biblical evidence for evolution and God making the changes at the genetic level and also making the selections. In any case, I miss my opponents and would love to hear from them, especially at their surrender and armistice ceremony.

Here is a last chance call for traditionalists and other YEs that can actually logically and Biblically defend their view against God guided evolutionary creation. Otherwise it looks like this debate may be over with evolutionary creation winning. 

Lee

All
This is a supplement to my previous post titled  'No Question That Ge 1 Describes Evolutionary Creation, Just How Do You Convolute It Justify Your View?'.  A count of the usage of the Hebrew word Yatsá in the old testament numbers nearly a thousand.  This same word Yatsá is used in Genesis 1 to describe the methodology used by the Hebrew אֶרֶץ (pronounced erets' (earth)) or 'מים (pronounced mayim ' (waters)) to bring forth or produce the various plant and animal kinds. Although the Hebrew word Yatsá is used most often to describe movement of people from one place to another, it is also often used to describe biological procreation. Various translations of these usages of Yatsá  are enumerated below in brackets '[]'with the translation wording identified in the notes at the end.  Many of these verses are listed although they are not exhaustive in the interest of saving space and the reader's interest.  Although the list is incomplete, it will hopefully suffice to show our readers that Ge 1 translations clearly imply that the earth and waters supported natural procreation of the kinds of plants and animals instead of the unnatural popping into existence ex nihilo proposed by my fellow debaters. 

None of the roughly 1000 usages of Yatsá  in the Bible indicate any miraculous popping of plants or animals into existence fully formed and mature as my fellow debaters believe.  In each case, natural procreation and growth under God's direction, generation after generation, is implied and/or clearly stated.  They are clearly wrong here in their assumption that the Bible supports their view.

All verses below are from the KJV Bible.  

Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,  This shall not be thine heir;  but he that shall come forth  [out]* of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 

Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful,  and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come [out]* of thee.

Gen 25:25 And the first came [out]* red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. 

Gen 25:26 And after that [came]** his brother [out]*,  and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Exd 1:5 And all the souls that came [out]* of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

Jdg 8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body [begotten]***:  for he had many wives.

Job 1:21 And said,  Naked came I [out]* of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave,  and the LORD hath taken away;  blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came  And said,  Naked came I [out]*  of the belly?

Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou [brought me forth out]N4  of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost,  and no eye had seen me!

Job 28:5 As for the earth, out of it [cometh]** bread: and under it is turned up as it were fire.

Job 31:40 Let thistles [grow]N5 instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended. 

Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may [bring forth]N6 food out of the earth;

Isa 11:1 And there shall [come forth]N7 a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 

Isa 39:7 And of thy sons that shall [issue from]N8 thee, which thou shalt beget,  shall they take away;  and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that [bringeth out]N9 their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. 

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou [camest forth out]N7 of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

Jer 20:18 Wherefore [came I forth out]N7 of the womb to see labour and sorrow, that my days should be consumed with shame?

[]* - Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English word 'out'

[]** - Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English word 'came' or 'cometh'

[]*** - Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English word 'begotten'

[]N4 - Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'brought me forth out'

[]N5 - Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'grow'

[]N6- Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'bring forth''

[]N7- Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'come forth''

[]N8- Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'issue from''

[]N9- Hebrew word יצא (yatsá) translated to English words 'bringeth  out''

Lee

Well Lee ...


It looks like it's down to you & me to resolve the Greatest Question of ALL Time?
Stu & Lucien both seem to be off to greener pastures?
But just like any good train-wreck ... I'm sure that morbid curiosity will lure them back for an occasional look?

I would like to apologize for my uncharacteristically slow responses to your latest Posts!
Been really busier than usual ... and just haven't had any spare time to devote to giving you the kind of replies that you seek!
Hopefully ... I can find some time this week to address your main points head-to-head?

I totally agree with you about the passionate debate sometimes appearing as blows close-to or even below the Belt!
My comments are NEVER meant to be taken as "personal" attacks ... but are often times extremely blunt rebuttals to claims that
are made ... that seem too obviously misstated or misquoted!
I also NEVER take any of your derogatory comments as personal as well ... !!!
So ... in all sincerity ... I too would like to wish you & your family a very Merry Christmas!
(as well as to anyone else who happens to be checking in? ... and is not offended by the greeting!)



20 Bret*11

All,
This is been a tough year on the blog with evangelical war breaking out,  and accusations and insinuations flying at each other. I think a lot of this comes from our unique zeal to grasp the truth while presenting our views to others. But putting that all behind us for the moment, and in the spirit of the season I want to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas! May next year be full of peace, harmony, and reconciliation.

Lee

Bret,

It doesn't bode well for your view that you continue to avoid my Biblical points. Do you just ignore the Bible and it's truth when you don't like what it states? It seems to me that you never have any good counter arguments against my Biblical points and that is why you continously ignore them. I even go back to the original Hebrew meanings to show you that your interpretation of the English translation is flawed. If you didn't notice it already, your claims below are all self imposed assumptions; you haven't shown any Biblical basis for them!.
At the risk of allowing this blog to go off on another tangent on the meaning of 'day' or yowm in the the original Hebrew without, as usual, addressing my Biblical case against your view, I will make the following responses toward your unfounded claims and assumptions below:

[Bret]-'...it would seem clear (to me) that He is saying that He created the Vacuum of Space (The Heavens) and the foundational Elements of our Earth (Formless & Void)!'

Your assumption above that the Heavens only consist of the 'Vacuum of Space' is not Biblically based but is pure conjecture and is counter to humanity's scientific understanding of energy, space and time and well as the history of creation with galaxies including our sun coming into being before our earth. Other references to the heavens in the Bible include all that is above the earth's surface and includes the sun, moon and stars and beyond our dimensions as in Heaven where He dwells with the angels . Ex 32:13, Deut 1:10, Deut 4:19, Ne 9:6, Ez 1:2, Ps 68:33, Ps 102:25 etc. There are no Biblical references made to the heavens as a vacant Vacuum of Space.

[Bret]- 'But ... the MAIN THING that God created in these first 5-verses is the very first calibrated fixed unit of TIME ... "one day" !!!

Really, the 'MAIN THING' is a fixed unit of time- one 24 hour day? This is a major assumption on your part, for the Biblical record, God created the universe and permitted the light to reach the earth's water surface for the first time where God was hovering. This would be the 'MAIN THING' described. What a distortion about the meaning of these verses to tell our readers!

[Bret]- 'Verses 3, 4, & 5 can ONLY be rationally explained as God telling us what the definition of "one day" actually is ... in OUR terms!'

More bluster it seems to me: "can ONLY be rationally explained"! In the various Bible versions it clearly states that God called the light day and the dark night. This is a different definition of the Hebrew word yowm and not the cyclical 24 hour day version that you are claiming can be the 'ONLY' interpretation. There is no reference in these verses to one spinning rotation of the earth (especially in a space vacuum with no other space objects as you assert).

Let's analyze your view logically based on your stated assumptions about Ge 1. Since the earth is formless and void while using your stated belief that a) the sun, moon and stars do not exist on the first day (only the Vaccuum of Space and Earth exist), and b) the Holy Spirit is providing the light, your statement that God is defining "one day" becomes irrational. Since nothing else exists:

Either 1) God would be flashing on and off at 24 hour intervals where He hovered to make the light. If this is your view, I think you would agree it is not consistent with the Bible since God is light and not darkness and He remains consistent in His characteristics throughout eternity. Since God is omnipresent, the author is providing a perspective for the reader from the featureless global water surface of the earth and not one specific location. There is always light reaching the surface of the planet somewhere on it if, I suspect you'll say, He provided a non-sun separate light source for the earth. On the illuminated side there is light and on the other side there is darkness. Of course this separate source of light is not stated or referenced anywhere in the Bible except for the sun, moon and stars! This indicates to me and many others that the separate light source never existed! Regardless, a time period such as a 24 hour day would not be definable from this constant illumination.

Or 2) If the author was providing a local perspective for a spinning earth relative to only a space vacuum and an imaginery light source, two unacceptable issues arise with your 24 hour definition of one day: a) the amount of daylight hours would vary on the surface of the globe depending on where the source of the light was located. For instance at the poles, one would be continuously illuminated and the other would not. At the equator, the hours would vary depending on the tilt angle of the source and the rotation rate. In this case, you have made your statement irrational because you are not allowing any of the celestial objects to exist on the first day as a light source to provide a reference for any rotation of the earth. The earth has no rotation relative to itself. As a side note, the tilt angle would not change since there are no gravitational objects like the sun or moon to provide a gravitational force for its change. If God was moving the light source around, then the daylight hours would be inconsistent and varying the definition of 'day'.

b) To make matters worse for your point of view, I should also add that on a formless featureless earth there is also no reference point on its water surface to determine a spin rate for the earth to define the length of time in a 'day'.

Since each of the above cases makes your claim irrational regarding the definition of a 24 hour day in verses Ge 1:3, 4, & 5, you should at least consider the possibility that the long time periods (yowm) that it actually takes to create the heavens and the earth is an allegorical or symbolic reference between the eternal time periods that God experiences and the daily time periods that humans experience.

[Bret]-'There is NO God time!
Because God is NOT contained in ANY dimensional space!
Outside of our Universe there is only ONE thing ....... "GOD" !!!'
There is NO God universe ... and therefore NO God time!'

What unknowledgeable assumptions you have made in your statements! To assert that you know whether God has or does not have other dimensions for himself, heaven or hell or a previous creation or new creation stretches even your limits of bluster and misinformation. I will let the below verses speak to you on this point, in the hope that you will stop making such outrageous and uninformed claims.

2 Peter 3:8 (NASV) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

It is clear to many of us that God creates dimensions at His discretion to accomplish His will and environments for Himself like Heaven, our world, and a new creation in our future. These verses clearly indicate that Peter and John believed that time existed for God prior to our world, some form of time will exist after our world passes away and that a different rate of time passage exists for God than our own.

[Bret]- 'Even if there was such a thing ... why would God start out telling us things about a realm that we could NEVER understand ... instead of describing OUR World ... and OUR Time ... and OUR understanding of OUR perceivable dimensionality?'

God is not talking about other realms but both historically and symbolically about our world. Historically about the sequence of evolutionary stages in our world's development and symbolically about our human time frame of working six days and resting on the seventh as we keep it Holy. The Bible is full of both historical and symbolic statements by God. Why should Ge 1 be any different?

This dialogue risks reviving our entire debate on the age of the earth; this would be most counterproductive since we have moved on to evolution vs creation. I hope you will continue providing more justification for your anti-evolutionary interpretation of Ge 1 and not let my response derail your substantiation of your views on Creation methodology.

Lee

Lee ...


Sorry for taking so long to reply to your Post!
Been out of town for over a week ... and then trying to get caught up on everything!
As usual ... you like to present things in huge clumps decorated with many words!
Instead of rebutting each of your claims individually ... one at a time ...
I'm just going to present my Case ... but in smaller (more digestible) bites!

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was [a]formless and void, and darkness was over the [b]surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was [c]moving over the [d]surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Taking God at His Word ... and believing His communication skills are unparalleled ...
it would seem clear (to me) that He is saying that He created the Vacuum of Space (The Heavens)
and the foundational Elements of our Earth (Formless & Void)!
But ... the MAIN THING that God created in these first 5-verses is the very first
calibrated fixed unit of TIME ... "one day" !!!
Verses 3, 4, & 5 can ONLY be rationally explained as God telling us what the definition
of "one day" actually is ... in OUR terms!
There is NO God time!
Because God is NOT contained in ANY dimensional space!
Outside of our Universe there is only ONE thing ....... "GOD" !!!
There is NO God universe ... and therefore NO God time!
Even if there was such a thing ... why would God start out telling us things about
a realm that we could NEVER understand ... instead of describing OUR World ...
and OUR Time ... and OUR understanding of OUR perceivable dimensionality?

God is Logical !!!

There is another (so called) god that deals in deception!




20 Bret*11