Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

... returning from vacation. But will take one last shot at your question.

Lucien -- I agree "angel time" is totally speculative and I really don't want to spend any more time on it other than answer your question.

I don't agree with your conclusion that angels would have to be eternal if they were created outside of "human time (HT)." Angels are created beings. They have a beginning and no ending. In my view they were created before T=0 HT. That doesn't make them eternal.

It sounds like you and Bret have angels created in HT Days. That's OK, but it is also speculative as there is no biblical evidence that's the case. It makes more sense to me that the angels were there with God at T=0 HT.

I hold to a "6 day" creation, but my days are "yoms" of indeterminate length. That's why we're going to post our old and young earth verses.

--
Bret -- thank you for you team attitude regarding theistic evolution! I want to partner with you and other Young Earthers on this to combat a growing movement of false and dangerous doctrine. OE/YE differences pale in comparison to the damage TE is capable of doing.

Stu: a time when angels and Satan existed before the creation
Stu: My guess is that they were created somewhere between an instant before creation so they could fulfill their function as ministering spirits, or myriads of myriads of angel time units before so they could fulfill their function of praising God.

Prior, Stu said: Still not sure where your going with this, but wherever it is it has to be speculative.

I think to invent "angel time" out of nothing is indeed speculative, but where I was going was to try and find out what you understand by "beginning".
You answered interestingly that from a human perspective t=0 equates to Gen.1:1, which leaves me still not understanding why you hold to humans appearing on the scene at the end (after billions of years) instead of at the beginning (day 6 or week 1).

A side issue was that if angels are created outside of time they would be eternal, but i think Bret handled that better, and is of secondary importance to me.

Stu ...


My near silence about your ongoing Trial is in no way a condemnation of your efforts!
I did post a complaint somewhat early-on ... but my objection was to the quibbling
between you & Lee over what proper "Court Procedures" were to be observed !!!

I can understand if some people are not comfortable with you creating additional dialog
for Jesus and some of the other co-authors of the Scriptures!
I (personally) was able to understand that you were only trying to extrapolate some
logical conclusions from the stated Scriptures ... then adding them to their authors as
dialog to drive home your point in the (creative) form of a Mock Trial ... !!!

Sadly ... (since Lucien & myself already agree with your conclusions) your intended target
"Lee"... was NOT open to accepting your arguments in this type of presentation!
This is why I decided to just step-back on this one ... and let you & Lee hash it out!

Maybe by shifting gears back to the "Original" purpose of this forum "AGE?"...
Lee and yourself might be able to patch-up your relationship (somewhat)... by focusing
on a Topic that you two seem to be 100% in agreement on?



20 Bret*11

First of all ... I think it would be nice if we actually included the Text of the Verses that we cite!

Job 38:4-7
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you [a]have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It would seem pretty obvious that God is peppering Job with some hyperbole here!
(well ... that's if God can actually be hyperbolic ... by definition?)
Looking at the actual Text ... we can see that what Stu is claiming the passage to say
is not quite as clear as he may have made it seem with his paraphrasing?
With that said ... I believe Stu was fairly accurate in his assessment!

It could be logically deduced that the laying of the Earth's Cornerstone could refer to
either Day-1 (the initial construct of Matter itself) or Day-3 (the creation of the Dry Land)?
Either way ... I believe it's pretty safe to say that this occurred on or before Day-3 !!!

Therefore ... the Angels must have been created on or before Day-3 ... Right?

Colossians 1:16
King James Version (KJV)

 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I offer this Verse for those that have any doubts about the fact that God DID indeed
create the Angels ... and the Spiritual realm in question ... at some point!

Ezekiel 28:13-15
King James Version (KJV)

 13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering,
the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire,
the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes
was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the
holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Here ... we see that the Angel Lucifer was created on a DAY !!!
Which would imply that the Angels were created sometime between the 1st second and the
3rd Day of the creation of ALL things ... including Time itself ... !!!

Now ... the really BIG question here is ... why does this even matter to this debate?
Even if Stu wants to believe that the Angels were created before Genesis 1:1 ... it would have
no bearing on how old the creation of the Earth & Universe actually are!

The only purpose for bringing up this issue (that I can figure out)... is to try to give some
credibility to the pre-Adamic fall of Satan "Gap Theory"?

But ... this Theory has two HUGE problems!
1st ... It is 100% speculative in nature ... with zero Biblical support!
2nd ... The above quoted Verse tells us that "Lucifer" was in the Garden of Eden BEFORE
his fall from grace! Therefore ... this Theory honestly doesn't make any sense?

If there's another reason why "when the Angels were created?"... has something to say about
the age of Creation ... then I am very curious to hear what it could be?



20 Bret*11

Lucien -- Still not sure where your going with this, but wherever it is it has to be speculative. There are few biblical passages that speak to it.

One thing we can know is that angels are spiritual beings -- not material -- and therefore are not subject to the same dimensions of TIME and SPACE as we are. I don't know what "angel time" is, but it is probably somewhere between TIME and ETERNITY since angels have a non-material beginning, existence, and no ending.

My guess is that they were created somewhere between an instant before creation so they could fulfill their function as ministering spirits, or myriads of myriads of angel time units before so they could fulfill their function of praising God.

Stu

ps -- I've been on vacation in Idaho this week and hence why I'm able to engage so much. Next week, however, back to busy.

If time begins at Gen 1:1,
but the angels were created before then,
it means they are eternal.
But they are NOT.
Only God is eternal.

Lucien,

Sorry I'm not sure where you are going with this, but here is my understanding ...

God is eternal and not subject to a timescale. Just as He is not subject to a energy scale, nor a knowledge scale, nor a space scale. He is “infinite” in all these categories.

God created all these “dimensions” for man when He created the heavens and the earth. God is transcendent to those dimensions.

The beginning of time from man’s perspective, T=0, is at Genesis 1:1. That is when God created matter, space and time.

Stu

So, when do you think TIME began?
(you can probably see where I am going with this)

I think we all will do well just to look at the Scriptures that inform us and let the Holy Spirit do the talking. I am not in this to debate (we’ve been doing that for two years) but rather to see how others view the Word.

Please go ahead and use the KJV. I’ll use the NASB. I just didn’t want us to cherry pick from several translations. I could also use the NIV and ESV if you want to try to land on one translation for everybody.

Let’s put a limit on this -- say no more than the top 25 verses (sections) of Scripture. And not include commentary/conclusions by others -- just our own selection of the Scripture and personal explanation, and only when necessary. For example, to answer Lucien’s question:

I see the angels (including Satan) created before the foundation of the earth and rejoicing when God laid its “cornerstone” (Job 38:4-7).

Bret -- It sounds like you’ve been following the trial. I’ve heard from Lucien but you’ve been remarkably quiet. What’s your take on it?

Since I’m going to take a little while yet to wrap up the trial, please feel free to go ahead and starting posting your verses.

Stu

Stu ...

Sure! ... I'm in!
Go ahead and rap-up your Court Case against Lee's position ...
then go ahead and Post your "List" of Scriptures that you believe support your case
for believing in "Deep Time" !!!

I feel safe in saying that Lucien & I would prefer that you use the "KJV" King James!
Yes! ... it's old (which you should like)... and it uses old-world (formal) English ...
but it has withstood the test-of-time as being extremely accurate & well researched!
Like ALL translations ... it does have a few places where the "Original" language could
have been better translated ... but these are all WELL documented ... and have been for
many many years now!

I would stipulate that whatever Translation we end up agreeing upon ... that we should
also agree to mainly (or better yet ... Only!)... use the Original Interlinear Bible
when we want to extrapolate or deviate from the "King James" (or other?) text?

Let's do this! ... Count me in!



20 Bret*11

Stu,


I could probably write a long post, but i won't.
I just want to pick up on one thing you mentioned:
“a time when angels and Satan existed before the creation,”

Do you believe that angels and Satan existed BEFORE the rest of creation?
If so, do you wish to substantiate with some Bible verses?

It would explain quite a bit for my own understanding of your views, so please enlighten me...


Lucien

Lucien,

I like what you are saying! I think you have brought us closer to be able to intelligently and non-emotionally discuss the age of the earth in a Christianly manner.

Bible and Science

I agree, if we can't appropriately reckon our personal interpretation of the Scriptures without imposing on them, then our interpretation must be rejected. And that goes for my old-earth view as well.

The straightforward reading of Scripture by the “orthodox” church (the traditional view) is the preferred reading and should not be abandoned with every “new wave of doctrine” that comes along. That’s how cults and heresies get started. On the other hand church history has been a proving ground century after century for “testing all things and holding fast to that which is true” (1 Thess 5:21). And many times it is not very pretty.

The Scripture prods us to look at the natural world as a second source of revelation -- the General Revelation (Romans 1 and 2). This challenge by the Scripture and the tensions it causes actually led to the scientific revolution. All tensions will be finally resolved some day because all truth (special and general revelation) is God’s Truth and they must converge in the end. Until then, however, we will be living in tension.

When science and biblical hermeneutics clash, the Scripture must be the arbiter. Science is constantly changing and tentative, Scripture has been fully revealed already and is infallible, although its interpretation is subject to refinement but not abridgment.

Our understanding of the natural world is constantly progressing. I think our increasing discoveries in science brings glory to God, just as improved understanding of the Scripture does. God is more fully revealed and glorified that way.

We should expect tension to increase as new discoveries in science are made, and welcome them as we attempt to reconcile science with the Scripture. But this is to be done in a Christianly manner; and because of our sin nature that normally is not the case. Unfortunately it can get ugly at times, as we have experienced just on this blog.

Age of the Earth

Regarding how the tension has played out over the ages regarding the age of the earth -- Galileo’s house arrest and ultimate vindication is the poster child case in point. That issue was finally reconciled over many decades/centuries with change being very difficult for both science and the Church. Does Scripture really teach that the sun goes around the earth? No -- it was a certain interpretation that implied that it did. Without that particular interpretation, the earth was free to go around the sun without violating God’s Word. For science it was liberating to find out that what Galileo saw through his telescope actually existed in God’s Nature. For the Church it was a defining milestone that being arbitrary about certain things does not change reality. The two finally reconciled and today no intelligent Christian believes otherwise.

Our “traditional” view of Scripture by the Church as well as our personal interpretation is influenced by what we observe in nature as well as the biblical worldview we bring to the Scripture. That has always been the case. The reconciliation between the two shapes the doctrine of the Church over time. Remember the early Church Councils.

Today’s scientific discoveries bring new challenges to the reconciliation process -- as evidenced by this blog. Some of those challenges will shape the traditional view -- but it will do so within bounds of classical interpretation. We should not be afraid of this process, even though at times it will be painful.

There are limits to what is allowed to influence “proposed” changes. Those limits are set by settled fundamental Christian doctrines that have been previously negotiated over the centuries. The most fundamental doctrines concern the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. The second is the efficacy of our primary source of information -- the Scripture. Next, I would put the fundamental doctrines of the Church concerning Creation, Fall, and Redemption. This fundamental triune base undergirds our faith.

I can be “progressive” in my thinking though new propositions such as the age of the earth as l think this issue does not attack foundational doctrines. But when something like evolutionary creationism comes along and argues to re-define one or more pillars of the faith, then I will become an unyielding defender as you have noted.

The Church

Regarding your point that the Church traditionally regarded the earth to be thousands of years old (based on the straight forward reading of the Scripture) rather than millions/billions of years -- I don’t think that is a totally defensible position. We OEers have documented our reasons in the early days of this blog.

The Bible doesn’t say in a straight forward manner how old the earth is. Bishop Ussher and others have made interpretations to that effect.

From the earliest days some Church fathers have considered the earth “ancient” not “recent”. Granted this seems to have been a minority report, but it was not considered heresy or even out of bounds.

The Bible doesn’t use words like thousands, millions, billions with the specificity we give those terms today. It does use words like recent, ancient, eternal, everlasting, old, etc. And it does speak to undateable pastimes such as “in the beginning”, “periods of time before the sun, moon and stars”, “a time before the creation of the world”, “a time when angels and Satan existed before the creation,” “a time of Satan’s fall”, “periods of time when God was creating before man was on the earth,” "a different time scale for man and God", etc. We all approach the Scripture with some presupposition as to the length of these periods before we decide to label them with a modern meaning of “thousands, millions, billions.”

We all begin interpreting Scripture through our own glasses which are influenced by the century and country in which we are bor; our level of education and social class; our level of study and understanding of the Bible and science; our commitment to Christ as well as the community of believers in which God has placed us.

Moving Forward

We know the ancients looked at the heavens with less understanding than we have today. Then it was more like a planetarium than what we now know to be true -- unless we want to believe in illusions. The moon we now know is some 240,000 miles away and is not anywhere near the same distance away from us as the sun and stars are. We now know that the light of the sun takes some 8 minutes to reach us. None of this affects our traditional understanding of the Scripture. But when we start extrapolating this information to other planets, moon and stars, we collide with assumptions that we might have made about biblical interpretation. And it may be quite a challenge to reconcile the two.

If I thought that my current position on the earth being ancient violated Scripture, or caused any fundamental doctrine of Christianity to destabilize, or in any way it tarnished the Person of Christ, I would abandon it and repent.

Going forward the best recommendation I can make, without rehashing the arguments of the last 2 years, is to list all the Scriptures that relate to the age of the earth without interpretation, presupposition, or commentary. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Then each of us, with prayerful help from the Holy Spirit, allow the Scriptures to talk to us and to each other.

If we decide to do this, let’s first agree on one translation of the Bible to use, but also allow optional alternative translations. Unfortunately, I will not be able to participate for a little while as I’m still “in trial” and need to complete my work. But I am willing to get started. What do you say?


Thank you again Lucien for helping define where we go from here. I think if we do this we will be able to make some real progress in our debate.

Stu

Thanks Stu.


OK.
Let me re-phrase my statement then.

Deep time is not clear from the straightforward reading of Scripture, but rather seems to be inspired by extra Biblical ideas.
The straightforward reading, which is the traditional view that you have referred to on a number of occasions, is the one that Bishop Usher and Isaac Newton (and others) used to come to an age of the earth of mere thousands, as opposed to millions/billions of years.


Lucien

Who Speaks For God?

That’s an easy one for an evangelical Christian -- God speaks for Himself, infallibly through the pages of the Bible. I do not speak for God, but I am able to interpret what the Scriptures say, as long as my fallible interpretations of it are separated out.

Since the literary form I used (a “Trial” scene) to defend the Church’s traditional view of Adam has been offensive to some on the blog, I am going to summarize the four theological arguments of “Trial Day 6” in a more classical fashion.

I am defending the Church’s traditional position that Adam was a literal historical man, created fully formed by a special creation act of God. My argument was based on 42 separate sections of Scripture from eight Old Testament books and ten New Testament books, which I rigorously and prayerfully researched. One must read the biblical citations in my 09/06/2011 post to fully follow the argumentation.

(1) God created everything, but He created only man in His image not the animals.

(2) God is love and He created mankind for His glory and established a unique love relationship with him. Animals are incapable of having that kind of love relationship with God.

(3) Adam and Eve were directly and specially created by God and are the original parents of the human race. Jesus validated their union as human parents. There is no scriptural evidence that Adam had a hominid origin (partial man/partial animal). Scripture calls the union of humans and animals an abomination.

(4) One of the most fundamental Christian doctrines is Redemption. The NT definition is based on the substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ as the “second Adam” for the “first Adam’s” sin.


From these Scriptures I concluded:

From (1): Evolution of mankind from animals degrades the image of God.

From (2): Hominids would be unable to giving loving nurture to Adam as a human offspring. Such a theory would degrade the biblical definition of love.

From (3): Adam was specially created by God’s fiat as a fully formed human being. Adam did not have a hominid mother and to suggest that he did is an abomination and questions Jesus’ understanding and credibility.

From (4): If a hominid produced Adam that would compromise the fundamental doctrines of Fall and Redemption and would nullify Paul’s teaching of Christ’s Substitutionary Atonement.


If it is necessary, and if anyone is interested, I will gladly outline the theological argumentation for “Trial Days 1-5” as well.

Stu

P.S. Thank you Lucien for your overview of the status of our debate these last two years. It fairly represents where we are, except that I think “deep time” can be successfully argued from the Scripture without having to impose it from outside.

1) George Gaylord Simpson said: "Given enough time, anything that is possible is probable"
This is why evolutionists NEED deep time. Also because if it could happen in little time, we would have eye-witnessed creatures evolving into other creatures. (a simple rescue device for this could be that it only happened in the (unobserved) past, but not in the present)
Without deep time, evolution is dead from the outset. (Bret already alluded to this recently)

2) All agree (I think) that atheistic evolution is simply not possible.
Lee argues that God is control, and according to him, this makes theistic evolution possible.

3) Stu, Bret and I would argue that theistic evolution is not found from Scripture, but rather imposed on Scripture.
Gen. 1 mentions 10x times "according to their kinds" (or a variation of this).
Theistic evolution is not compatible with Christian theology, they say.

4) Bret and I argue that deep time is not found from Scripture, but rather imposed on Scripture.
We have reasoned that the time from the beginning to Abraham can be found to be in the order of about 2 millennia, simply by adding up numbers that can be quoted using verses from the Bible.
The time from Abraham to Jesus is again roughly 2000 years, although this is not as simply found as the first twenty centuries...

I don't think I have depicted anyone's view incorrectly, but correct me if I am wrong.


Lucien

...But I don't think you, Lee, should then think you speak for "other readers", as you do below.

It is quite clear if you use Sola Scriptura that creation is obvious, and nothing even remotely hints at evolution.
Your numerous verses from a plethora of different translations speaking about development in the womb, gives me to think you actually still believe in ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. But perhaps this is not so.

The evolution over millions of years exists in your mind Lee, but not in the Bible.


Lucien

Stu,
I just don't know how long you can keep this delusion that you speak for God and the saints going. This seems to qualify as blasphemy: {the act of claiming the attributes of deity} I thought you would have repented and asked for forgiveness by now. It is pretty clear to me and other readers that you are willing to fabricate lies using the name of Jesus to do it and in the process destroy the credibility of the Christian faith in order to try and win your case. Very sad and upsetting to many of us.

Lee

Bret,

Wow, I'm in shock that you agree with so much of what I believe.  This is an historic day in the blog!

I also want to respond with a statement below each one of those statements where you stated that we disagree.

[Bret]- Spiritual Beings do have a Free-Will like ourselves! and ... I don't believe that we can ever turn Apes into something more advanced than they already are ... because there is NO pre-programmed information in their DNA!

I would like to get a better understanding of what this 'pre-programmed information' is.  As far as I know it is just the genetic code differences between the human genome and the specific apes genome. If a human researcher could alter the ape's genetic code in the womb of an ape to match a human's genetic code sequence, wouldn't the developed and delivered being be a baby human?  I would think that it would be.  And if this happened gradually over thousands or millions of years in gradual increments one trait at a time, wouldn't the being that was born still be human.  It seems to me that the human genome is what defines being human.  It is significantly different than the ape genome.  If you think there are limits in the transitional beings, I think you have a responsibility to define those limits and identify the mechanism or characteristics of procreation that provide those limits.  After studying this topic for a while now, I haven't found anything to substantiate your claim about limits.

[Bret]- Man only has the ability to tinker with "trait" selection ... from the information that is already available in the Created Kind's genome. (i.e. Lateral or Degenerative Changes!) 

[Bret]- Matter being determined to evolve itself into greater complexity?

Matter is matter: quarks, bosons, and leptons.  Information is information.  Our bodies and all other physical objects consist of just these items.  The only thing that distinguishes any human body from any other physical object is the information in that object.  The information that distinguishes human bodies from all other life forms, is the information locked up in the human genome.  

If  we human  spirits collectively acquire sufficient understanding and skills to manipulate the genomic matter and can make all of the necessary changes in a monkey zygote to convert it to a human zygote, what would prevent (other than God interceding) the human spirit from doing what the Holy Spirit has already done.  

[Bret]- Man having any "possible" ability to tinker with Spiritual things or Beings!

Jesus told us that we humans are body and spirit and not just body.  We are highly spiritual in our human characteristics and made in the image of God spiritually.  This means we can design, create, build, modify, destroy, understand, and acquire wisdom.  All of these traits are informational (spiritual).  This means that we have the ability to create new information or modify existing information in the matter that surrounds us.  Our jobs, our physical well-being, and our society all depend on our spiritual ability to modify the information in matter (things and beings).  

Therefore the only limit on our ability to tinker with spiritual things or beings would be imposed by God himself because it would be contrary to His Plan.  He would prevent, by His interaction informationally, any human spirit caused changes to the organization of the matter that would prevent His spiritual goals from occurring.  

I don't believe this is the case here though as His plan seems to allow for an tremendous amount of pain, suffering, disobedience, and sin.  It's like He's allowing us to get it all out of our spiritual systems before we enter through the Pearly Gates!

Lee

MONKEY TRIALS - DAY 6
MAN IN THE IMAGE OF GOD - CREATED FOR LOVE AND GOD’S GLORY

The Defense recalls the Lord Jesus Christ to the witness stand.

Defense: Lord Jesus, You opened the defense testimony on Day one with how You, as the Second Person of the Trinity, were the Agent of creation (1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Jn 1:1-4). What we would like to explore with You today is why You created only man in Your Image (Gen1:27), and why the theory that man evolved from animals is so destructive to biblical theology, particularly when You are implicated as the Agent of evolution.

Christ: I have existed for all eternity in perfect Trinitarian love with the Father and Holy Spirit (Jn 17:5, 24). Our most intimate purpose in creation was to express that love and that led Us to create mankind in Our image and likeness. We created mankind to be uniquely similar to Us. We did not make the animals with that capacity. We created the animals to serve mankind and help preserve the natural order. These were separate miraculous creations as the Scriptures clearly indicate (Gen 1:24-26).

Defense: You also stated that You created mankind for Your glory (Is 43:7). What did you mean by that?

Christ: We created mankind with the capacity to love Us back in a way similar to how We in the Trinity love one another. When that kind of love is fully expressed, We are glorified and rejoice (Isa 62:5b; Zeph 3:17). Likewise man rejoices in Our love for him (Ps 84:4; Rev 4:11).

The closest human experience is that of married love (Mt 19:4-5). The imagery given in Scripture is My role as Bridegroom to the Church (Rev 19:6-9). My ultimate expression of love for mankind was coming to earth to die for man's sins (Jn 3:16; Rms 5:8). You can see why Our commands to love are so direct: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself (Matt 22:37; Jas 2:8). And, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Eph 5:25).

When mankind loves Us back We rejoice and are glorified. Being glorified fulfills the purpose of creation.

Defense: The plaintiff says that man evolved from animals, and since Your great love extends to all of creation, therefore evolution does not impugn Your love relationship with mankind.

Christ: Their thinking is wrong. Animals were not created with the capacity to volitionally love. Yes, We gave some of them natural instincts to mimic human love, but they do not have the ability to “choose” to love. They don't pray; they don't worship. We did not give them the intellect nor moral capacity to obey; only mankind has that capacity and can be held morally responsible to: Be holy because I, the LORD your God am holy (Lev 19:2; 1 Pet 1:16).

Mankind is to rule over the animals (Gen 1:26-28) as they were created separately. The animals purpose is to assist man with his stewardship responsibilities (1 Kngs 19:2; Prov 12:10), as well as be a major provision for him and nature in the food chain (Gen 9:3).

As you know, before I became the substitutionary atonement for man's sin, animals were the provision for the atoning sacrifice (Ex 29:36-37; 1 Jn 3:16). We made animal sacrifice the way to heal the breach man created by man's sin. Their role in the creation is vital, but it is inferior to man's.

Mankind's evolution from animals degrades the Scriptural definition of love.

Defense: The plaintiff also claims that you breathed your Spirit into mankind after he allegedly evolved from the hominids -- the supposed half-man/half-ape ancestor. They say in this way the unique love relationship You desire with mankind is not abdicated.

Christ: If evolution were true, then Adam's mother and father are hominids. There is no evidence for that anywhere in Scripture. This idea is imposed on the Scripture from outside withoout humility - a very dangerous practice.

If Adam had a hominid mother, then Adam and all his descendants, including Me, have descended from a hominid. That thinking is a personal affront to the holiness of the Godhead. They should be in anguish over such speculation. They are confounding My image and glory with that of an animal, and by doing so are in danger of being given over to idolatry violating the second commandment (Rms 1:22-25; Ex 20:4-5).

A thorough study of the Scriptures should tell any Christ-follower that theistic evolution (aka evolutionary creationism) degrades mankind from being the special creation of Mine. It is an abomination to the natural order to have hominids mating to give birth to Adam; and worse yet to have humans and hominids mating. When Moses codified the natural order into Law he called those sorts of things "perversions," and those so engaged in it were to be executed (Ex 22:19; Lev 18:23-30; 20:15-16).

Defense: Lord, Paul explained to us how all Christian theology rests on Your redemptive work at the cross and subsequent resurrection. He testified that Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Cor 15:20-49 portray Your work as the "second Adam" and how it reversed the curse of the Fall caused by the sin of the "first Adam." You, as the "second Adam" were born of a human mother Mary. But according to theistic evolution, the "first Adam" was born of a hominid mother. Please tell us how this perverts Christian theology.

Christ: Let's begin with the plaintiff's theology that the "first Adam" had a hominid mother. This poor creature is not even cognizant of her own existence let alone the special purpose she would have in bringing the very first human being into the world. This "mother" would not have known a loving relationship with God and hence was incapable of passing on that love to Adam, the progenitor of the entire human race! There is no biblical record of such an event.

In contrast, My human mother Mary was amazed at the love and miracles lavished upon her by God and subsequently recorded in Scripture. It begins with Isaiah's prophecy that, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel ("God with us") (Is 7:14; Mt 1:23). The angel Gabriel visited Mary and prophesied My impending birth (Lk 1:30). She was surprised by joy when the kings from the East came to worship Me bearing gifts (Matt 2:11). And she articulated her ecstatic joy to God in Luke 1:46-55, My soul glorifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior....From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me. Mary experienced a divine love that no other woman has or ever will. She was the chosen human mother to give birth to Me as the "second Adam." All these events are glorified in Scripture.

Defense: Lord Jesus, let me repeat what I think I am hearing you say: Mankind was personally and specially created by You to engage in a reciprocal love relationship. This relationship glorifies You and blesses mankind. You created animals to serve mankind and the natural order. Nowhere in the Scripture does it say that man evolved from the animals. Man and animals are separate and miraculous creations. Man is above the animals; a higher order special to God. Is that correct?

Christ: Yes, you are exactly correct. We created man just a little lower than Ourselves, and crowned him with glory and majesty. We made him to rule over the animals, not descend from them. As King David beautifully said it in the Psalms:

What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty! You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, All sheep and oxen, And also the beasts of the field, The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
O LORD, our Lord, How majestic is Your name in all the earth!
(Ps 8:4-9)

Remember, Paul specifically testified in 1 Cor 15:39 that, Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another . And Moses specifically testified that each was a special creation of God. It is dangerous speculation which leads to heretical doctrine to think that I guided an evolutionary process that gave birth to mankind through hominids. The plaintiff should take Paul's warnings in Romans 1:22-25 and Moses' warning in the second commandment (Ex 20:4-5) very seriously.

Defense: Thank you Lord Jesus, you may step down.

Lee ...


Think I'm gonna pass on the Monkey Movie!
Mainly because we don't go to see very many movies ...
and having a 4-year old daughter means that when we do ...
we tend to end-up in the kiddie matinee!

I think we agree about how Free-Will & Predestination actually exists at the same time!
(In general)
Our "outcome" is predestine only in the sense that God already knows what ALL of our
Free-Will decisions will bring about!
And Yes! ... He can (and does) intervene (sometimes) into our self-guided tour of life!
Usually ... when He's invited to do so ... but also when He needs to protect us from
things that we're unaware of ... and the times that we walk into the Lion's Den with
both eyes wide-open as well ... !!!

God can see into our futures (because He exists outside of His creation)...
therefore He knows when He needs to save someone with a miracle ... and other times
when He needs to take someone out of the Game (i.e. tragic accident?) to make sure
His "Master" plan is not derailed !!!

Where we tend to differ is ...
Matter being determined to evolve itself into greater complexity?
Man having any "possible" ability to tinker with Spiritual things or Beings!
Spiritual Beings do have a Free-Will like ourselves!
and ... I don't believe that we can ever turn Apes into something more advanced than
they already are ... because there is NO pre-programmed information in their DNA!
Man only has the ability to tinker with "trait" selection ... from the information
that is already available in the Created Kind's genome!
(i.e. Lateral or Degenerative Changes!)

But HEY! ... some overlap is better than no overlap at all ... right?



20 Bret*11

Bret and Lucien,

I sometimes wish I knew God's Plan, then I realize that it would be SUPER TMI and I am not capable of understanding it. Only He is capable of dealing with His plan. For me I am quite satisfied living it out and trying to do what He woud want me to do and make my own decisions and take my own actions. God tells us in the Bible that He already knows what mine and everyone else's thoughts and actions will be. So God can know the future and everything that is happening in His universe while still giving us free will.

These two things (physical determinism and free will thoughts and actions) are not the same. Free will is spiritual and based on logical (or illogical) decision making by each one of us. Our spirit (or logical characteristics of our minds) is informational and is eternal. These characteristics (although temporarily stored in this world physical matter and fields) are not dependent on the physical matter of our universe. Matter and energy in our universe are deterministic based on the physical laws and initial conditions of the universe including any special tweaks of the physical laws that He wants to make along the way to perform His miracles and make this world conform to His plan.

Therefore, to answer Lucien's question, God may or may not allow the tweaking of various genomes by humans, it all depends on His prexisting plan which I don't know nor want to. He has already compensated His plan for all human thoughts and actions throughout the entire history of the universe.

To please God, we need to exercise caution in genetic research. Human tampering in genomes are currently risky in both the spiritual realm and the physical realm. The physical tampering could (if God permitted) kill a major percentage of humans if the wrong virus or bacteria were released from the lab. It might also produce human monster's that suffer at the hands of the researcher while they mature and live. The spiritual tampering could condemn certain individuals for eternity as their free will decision to perform certain experiments may directly violate God's spiritual laws while gaining the experimentor money, power, and fame.

I am not saying that this spiritual tampering has happened yet, but based on animal experiments, it occurs to me that unbelieving researchers are willing to try about anything in the name of 'progress'. It seems very likely that some atheist out there someday will see nothing wrong with trying to produce new breeds of super humans in a hidden laboratory somewhere or try to produce a breed of smart apes and might even be successful. Some of the errors made along the way may get God furious. However, this might be permitted in God's plan to allow His children to see the effects of the evil it produces. Based on the way the world is presently operating, I think God intends for us to get a complete education about evil. It wouldn't be the first time that God has permitted humans to experience evil nor will it likely be the last.

In summary, I would have to say that I believe the universe and all actions are deterministic, however, the spiritual characteristics of humans (information) are not deterministic and allow us free will choices during our lifetimes. Since our minds are currently supported by physical matter that operates on determinstic laws and He knows the entire history of this universe from beginning to end, God can track and know all of our logical decisions and spiritual informational characteristics that we build during our lifetimes. This complex logical filter built of matter and energy that makes free will decisions and takes actions on physical matter is us and totally informational. He has already compensated His plan for us, our decisions and actions to accomplish His plan. This would allow us to have free will, for us to have accountability, and Him to have a predetermined world with us (our eternal spirits) in it. Kind of wonderful isn't it!

Are you going to see the POFA movie now?

Lee

Hey Lee ...


Take it easy on those folks down in Louisiana!
At least you're not a Hurricane!

To answer your question (to all)... No, I have not seen the new PotA movie!
I do remember enjoying the Original movie ... as a kid!
It was the ultimate (movie-length) Twilight Zone episode ... back in the day!
But ... you're right about the cheap & cheesy sequels that were thrown together
soon after the 1st movie was a hit!

It would seem that you've reignited the "Predestination" vs. "Free Will" debate?
I understand that you're a strict "Determinist" ... but you can't ignore the existence
of "Free Will"... can you?

Evil exists because of "Free Will"!
No "Free Will" means that God is directly responsible for ALL of the Evil in the World!

I agree with you that God (and ONLY God)... is responsible for ALL of the "healthy"
genetic changes (mutations) that have created the great diversity seen in ALL of His created "kinds"!

But ... I would like to see your answer to Lucien's question ... as it relates to the
documented "Human" involvement in genetic (DNA) manipulation?

There actually could be more common-ground between our views than previously believed ...
depending on how you end up answering his question?



20 Bret*11

That human manipulation of DNA and breeding can only go so far, within pre-determined limits?

Lucien,

I refer to the Bible to describe my position on this matter. You seem to believe that there is a air of uncertainty in what has been made and what will be made and that His plan is not established. Maybe you are unfamiliar with these verses:

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, 17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.

Jn 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. 

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

Lee

If God does the tinkering, it is possible.
But with humans, it is not?