Young Earth or Old Earth? Here is where to post your thoughts!

This just may be the most honest assessment of "What we know?" vs. "What we think we know?"...
that I've ever seen produced by secular Scientists !!!
Please! ... watch this Horizon (BBC) show ... and don't forget to take notes?
Because ... I will soon Post a list of questions that have ALL been answered by this program!
If you read my list of questions without watching this ... you'll think I'm just making this stuff up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge6RjTgyLr0&feature=PlayList&p=9B611FB16B583D3B&index=0&playnext=1

I happened to catch this 2010 program on the Science Channel ... a couple of months ago!
See how well that you can distinguish between "Facts" & "Fables"... ???


Bret* 2010

Sometimes ... I think I enjoy coming up with corny Post Titles more than the content?
I'm sure you and many others have seen or read claims, in the past, about many or virtually
all living creatures possessing a self-awareness ... to some degree or another?
Sadly ... this field of study is riddled with false, faulty, & exaggerated claims!
Motivated by Evolutionist, Vegetarian, & Animal Rights Groups ... (who would benefit
greatly if this could be proven)... opportunists in this field are quick to publish
anecdotal evidence in lieu of definitive evidence ... seeking to be an overnight Hero
to these groups of salivating supporters!
This is why I referenced an interview with Prof. Gordon Gallup ... that was filmed in 2010 ...
and was aired on the Science Channel (Not Syfy!) !!!
The following link will help to validate my claims:
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2010/08/harvard_morality_researcher_in.html

Don't forget to read the "comments" after you finish the article ... as there are some great points made as well ... !!!


Bret* 2010

No, not Miami.

I think I may have seen a documentary once (Horizon?) that showed dolphins may have self-awareness. It involved mirrors.
It was a long time ago though...


L
(of course, if you read the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, you knew this all along)

My next few Posts will be in the form of dubious claim verifications! (Mopping Up!)
These are NOT personal attacks! ... but are fact based alternative conclusions that
strongly contradict some of the unchallenged statements made in previous Posts!

Descartes (the father of Dualistic Philosophy) suggested that the body works like a machine,
that it has the material properties of extension and motion, and that it follows the laws of physics.
The mind (or soul), on the other hand, was described as a nonmaterial entity that lacks extension and motion,
and does not follow the laws of physics.

Cognitive Neuroscientists using sophisticated brain-scanning equipment can accurately
predict a person's decision of a left or right response ... up to 6-seconds before that
person actually realizes they're going to make it !!!
Your Non-physical "Mind" is telling your Physical "Body" what to do!
This is NOT a delay between thought & action!
It is a delay between Soul & Awareness!

This is not the case for things like reflex or instinctive reactions!
So ... this brings us to the distinction of Human self-awareness!
Prof. Gordon Gallup (the father of the Mirror Self-Awareness Test) states that ONLY
3-species of creatures possess any definitive evidence of self-awareness ...
Humans! ... and to a much lesser degree ... Chimpanzees & Orangutans!
But ... even humans do not become self-aware until they are 18 to 24 months of age!

This is the Raw Scientific Data!
Now ... from here YOU can draw your own speculative conclusions as to what this proves?
Time to rinse the Mop ... and put it back in the slop-bucket for now!
Stay tuned ... !!!


Bret* 2010

Stu, Lee, Lucien, & others ...

I don't believe that this Blog should EVER be ended !!!
There's a Boat-load of information that's already posted here ...
and here it shall remain ... until "forumotion.com" goes belly-up
or decides that this site is no longer hit-worthy for its advertising purposes!
If someone chooses to suspend posting, checking, referring, or just casually reading
this Blog for any reason ... I believe that that is their prerogative!
If someone says something that they may regret posting? ... Then I believe that they
retain the right (and the power) to Delete, Edit, or Embellish THEIR own posts ...
to their hearts content !!!
Stu ... I understand your concern about us being (on occasion) seen as Bad Witnesses!
Sadly ... the TRUTH is ... that ALL Christians are Bad Witnesses on a regular basis!
Like Lucien posted ... there are no GOOD CHRISTIANS !!!
Only ONE is GOOD !!! His name is Jesus !!!
The rest of us are sinfully wicked !!!
Some of us are better at hiding this than others ... but please don't deceive yourself
into believing that you're even the slightest bit Holy !!!
You may be saved? But your righteousness is like a filthy rag in God's eyes !!!
When this sinful nature takes center-stage in your life ... it IS the obligation of
your fellow brethren to expose this to you (with Love)... and help you to find
repentance ... and to regain some humility with your weaknesses !!!
So ... (personally) I say ... let each of us choose to do the right thing ... that
which the Holy Spirit places a burden upon our heart to express openly!
Post the TRUTH that God has revealed to you ... Boldly! ... and without Apology!
Satin is the Deceiver! He is the one that will twist God's Word as to deceive you!
Challenge what you believe to be the TRUTH ... as "THE" Truth can NEVER be destroyed!
Those of you who are reading this ... but have never posted your thoughts? ...
This is the time for you to chime-in ... and say whatever God places on your heart !!!
Is does NOT have to be about the Topic of this Blog!
Just say what God wants you to share with us ... at this time?
Thanks for at least considering it!


Bret* 2010

Hello Dear Friends,

I have deleted my last 2 posts and Lee will delete his. It seems that our blog has become too contentions and to a point where the matters discussed need to be done so in private rather than publically. I encourage any of you who commented publically on those posts to consider doing the same.

This brings us to a decision point about the future of our blog. Is it time to end it? Personally I think we have accomplished much of our original objectives. I have met wonderful people through the blog and have learned to better appreciate their perspective. Much of the time we honored Christ even through some sharp argumentation. But I am reminded of Matthew 18 and 2 Timothy 2:23-25 and see that public quarreling among brothers is not edifying to the Body of Christ.

I have gained a better appreciation of where other Christians are coming from in their attempt to honor Scripture and harmonize it with the physical world around us. Thank you dear friends for your many hours of praying, thinking, and debating some of the the more esoteric points of the Bible.

Thank you all for a great year of intellectual engagement.

Would you please post your views on the matter.

Stu

Hi all

The most recent posters (me included) all hold strong views when it comes to their worldview.
We all believe we are correct in Bible exegesis. I personally hold to a view to take the most straightforward reading unless it does not make sense.
Ultimately we can't all be right, as some of our views contradict on some/multiple aspects. It might be that none of us holds the entire correct view, although of course there IS a correct view, and we will know it in heaven.

It reminds me of Paul in Acts 17, preaching to the Greeks. A lot of people might think Paul was not very successful because only a few converted, and Peter in Acts 2 had 3,000 converts. However, I believe Paul was incredibly successful, as he preached to people with a completely different foundation, whereas Peter preached to the Jews, who at least believe the OT and thus the doctrine of a Creator, original sin, death because of it, atonement, etc.

I know I too have been somewhat offensive in the past. I believe in saying it as it is, unless there are women or children involved, then I may use another strategy. This comes across quite blunt sometimes, but let's face it. We are all grown-ups here and believe we will all meet in heaven and praise the Lord Jesus the Christ!

Until that moment, it is good to keep learning, listening and witnessing.
But in the mean time, can we please drop the term "good Christians"? There is no such things. Only One is Good.


Cheers,
Lucien

Deleted Post

That was the "softened version" ???
Lee ... your last post is SCARY !!!
O.K.! ... your feelings are hurt ... and you're upset!
So now ... your response is to try and destroy Stu and his ministry?
Like I said before ... after meeting you (in person) I would never have believed that
you were capable of such vengeful anger as you have displayed!
What happened to that guy with the warm smile ... who could calmly beg-to-differ when
someone challenged his eclectic views on trying to harmonize Scripture with Science?
It would seem that your friendship with Stu is unrepairably damaged?
But ... this is no reason for you to declare an all-out war against him!
You guys jumped ALL over me about my use of sarcasm & satire when this Blog first began!
It wasn't easy for me to realize that you guys were right ... but I finally got the message!
It's fairly obvious that you're not ready to reconsider your theories about how God
created everything ... and how long it actually took?
So ... can you (at least) please try to express a little civility when posting your
opinions and your responses to the posted opinions of others?
Thank You!

Bret* 2010

Bret, you were asked to retract by Stu this post and a related one resulting from our rather personal exchange that should not have been posted and since were deleted. I am replacing my original post here since you refuse and as I feel compelled to address your incorrect views.

You have exaggerated and mislabeled me, once again, based on a misunderstanding of my views by Stu.       

Bret- 'I know it must have been extremely difficult for you to publicly expose your good friend and congregational brother as a potential heretic to the Faith!'

Stu had made an incorrect assessment of my views which we have since met and resolved. We are still friends.  He made no statement about heresy so this is your claim only.  I have to assume by your refusal to retract your statement that your attempt to label me as a 'heretic' is only self-serving toward damaging my image with the few readers remaining. This is not very Christian of you!  But it is what I have learned to expect from the YEs when anyone disagrees with their dogma. 

The following verse comes to mind. 

Matthew 23:26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean too!

I hope you will reconsider retracting both posts, as they do not serve our common cause or accurately provide truth.   

Lee

Stu ...

I know that we don't always agree on certain scientific matters ...
as well as the interpretation of every passage of the Bible!
But ... your assessment of Lee's eccentrically eclectic Theology was spot-on !!!
I know it must have been extremely difficult for you to publicly expose your
good friend and congregational brother as a potential heretic to the Faith!
I know that I have only met Lee a few times ... but he does seem like the kind
of guy that would make a great & trustworthy friend !!! (I mean that Lee!)
In person ... Lee came across as a very gracious, warm, humble, and even humorous man ...
that is obviously extremely intelligent and well read ... especially in
the areas of Math & Science! (again ... I honestly mean that Lee!)
This is why I wanted to take a moment to post this information to the few other
people that might actually be reading our little blog ... that don't fully understand
the magnitude of the Spiritual sword that Stu has willfully fallen on !!!
I've always had a ton of respect for Stu ... ever since I met him ... but now he
has joined my short-list of the Spiritually elite !!!
I also know that Stu is much too humble to take any pride in my accolades!
I know that serving up such a huge portion of humble pie to your friend Lee brings you no joy!
And ... I can only pray that Lee decides to eat a slice ... as opposed to angrily throwing it back at your face?
I honestly hope & pray that you & Lee can find a way past this necessary confrontation?
He could gain an immeasurable amount of Spiritual insight into the Scriptures if he chooses to value your friendship ...
and realize that you can both learn a lot from each other!

Bret* 2010

Lee: "You are the ones that seem to believe He made an inferior creation or the laws have been damaged and changed as a result of mankind"

Actually Bret and I are the people who believe the creation was perfect in the beginning, and cursed after mans original sin, from which it went downhill.
I readily admit that creationist (or anyone else) do not fully grasp how the curse actually was implemented. It is one of the many outstanding questions.

Oh, about forgiving. Seventy times seven comes to mind when I read:
"It's not very Christian! I'll forgive you this time since you have been a good friend over the years."
If your forgiveness is only once and based on the merit of Stu having been a good friend over the years, it is you who is actually not Christian, Lee.
Jesus teaches forgiveness many many times, unlimited as far as I am concerned, and is based solely on grace, not being a good friend. We are even to forgive our enemies! Didn't you know?

Lucien stating some basic Gospel teaching there...

deleted 9/16/2010

Deleted

Bret, 

I am glad that you took the time to provide your answers.  
Here are my responses related to your answers:

1) We can measure the effects of dark matter to know how much of it there is because it couples with matter gravitationally. It's gravitational coupling with the visible matter in galaxies is what led us to its discovery and why we are led to believe of it's existance. We have hard evidence for its existance from the rotational rates of galaxies.  Dark Matter is not a good example of something that can't be measured like spiritual forces. 

BTW do you think they couple to the other forces or not? Your response would indicate that you think they couple through gravity only which would not be very efficient in trying to control the electrical impules in the brain or the quantum coherent states. 

2) Your reply indicates that you think the Holy Spirit is a force like gravity, or the electro-magnetic force. These forces of nature have no intelligence (ability to process information).   As a physical force it has no decision capability.  This force would be limited to operating using initial conditions, the fields in that dimension, and mathematical rules.   Do you really believe this or are you just being funny?  

3) I agree with you that thinking is a normal natural function. Yeah! I question that you believe in thinking is a truly natural function based on your later answer though.  I'm fairly sure that Stu believes that we are an extra dimensional spiritual force and our spiritual force is providing the thoughts to our brains and the brain is translating the thoughts into neuro-muscular actions. I hope he will define this coupling to the four forces so we can understand how this type of thought interacts with our bodies.  I don't believe him as he has not provided any real evidence for these forces.   

4) I would give mammals like wolves, dogs, and chimpanzees a lot more credit in the thinking department than you do as simple instinct. I think of instinct as a simple uncontrollable reaction to an outside stimulas. These animals show a sense of sadness, love and community than simple instinct would indicate to me. They sometimes even develop inter-species friendships as we often read about and personally witness in our lifetimes.   Dogs have been known to sacrifice their lives for their human companions; that is not instinct.  That is a conscious decision as instinct encourages self-preservation.   Although they are not capable of abstract thought, their behavior is a lot more thoughtful and humanlike than pure instinct. Dogs in particular express guilty behavior when they do something wrong and seem to recognize right from wrong when trained. 

5) With your reference to DOS, now I know you are kidding about demons being a force. 

6) Yes, our conscious minds are all natural and based on the four physical laws with the information in our brains as the driving force behind our meat computer and bodies. In this understanding, we are on the same wavelength and right frequency. 

7) I have no idea how your response answered my question related to a large number of beings residing on and using the same field (dimension).  I mentioned real ways multiplexing fields because these work. You must have imagined something magical to replace these. Besides your reply on 2) indicated a natural method of thought. These conflict. 
How do these forces coexist and not merge together: frequency, phase, code multiplexing, or something else?

8 )  Since in 2) you stated that we think naturally, your reply on 8 ) indicates that the additional personalities are not natural but spiritual invaders. Which one of the personalities is natural and which ones are the spiritual forces?  Why would you treat them differently in how they are realized; why aren't they implemented in the same way?  Your reply conflicts with 2) it seems. 

9) I am interested how you think these spiritual forces manifest themselves in our world since there are thousands to billions of them. Do they each have multiple dimensions assigned to each one, a single set in which they all multiplex together somehow?  How do they interact or couple with our set of dimensions since they are in a different dimensional set?  Please reveal your thouhts or speculate on this so that I can try to understand your view. 

10) I hope you would agree though, that Imageo Deo is able to understand at least some of what his Father made in this world.   I strongly disagree with the final statement made in your last post.  I am a living example of why you are wrong in your assumption about science: 'Besides ... Science is NOT trying to explain God!
Science is trying to explain God away !!!
Can't you see that ???'

You have stereotyped all scientists and science together.  This is a great weakness in your argument.  I came to belief in God because of science, it was the fine tuning of nature' physical constants that permitted life to exist that convinced me. This is the case for quite a few people: Lee Strobel being a good example. Hugh Ross was an astronomer before becoming a minister who evangelizes using science. John Polkinghorne was a quantum physicist before becoming an Anglican Priest.  The scientific investigation of Nature confirms God's design for many.   

For those that have tried as you suggest to use science to prove that God doesn't exist, most are now forced to believe in an infinite number of universes for which there will never be any evidence. I would call this a fool's trap. This reminds me of the basic test used for determining if someone is insane: believing that something exists that there is no evidence for.   That is where science has led atheists: believe in God or else an infinite number of universes that we can't prove or disprove due to am absolute lack of evidence. 

There will be some, until the end of days, that will try to use anything to disprove God's existance, but they will eventually fail as all tongues will confess in the end. You shouldn't disown science as a Christian because of few insane scientists that try to lead humanity astray, it provides them a platform for making fools of themselves for all to see as they make outrageous hypotheses that are eventually disproven or have no foundation in reality.  Life on earth seeded by outer space aliens being but one example that is proposed by Richard Dawkins.  People like him do not speak for all scientists!  Yes, we are in the minority right now due to persecution, but we also will prevail over time due to science, wisdom, and understanding.   

Lee

deleted 9/16/2010

Only C.
Don't think there is a kind that reproduces sexually that can only have exact clones of itself. This would mean that mail and female are identical, which is an impossibility, since one is male and the other female, i.e. different.

The adaptation is limited by the preloaded info from the created kinds at first, and then the bottleneck at the Flood.
Feasibility studies on Noah's ark have mentioned the number 16,000 kinds. Similar references mentioned in the order 50 or so kinds of dinosaurs, given that any find is tended to give a new species name, but on closer examination, often are in the same kind as previous finds.
16,000 kinds is peanuts, if you count the ark to have a capacity of nearly 600 train wagons. This is less than 30 kinds per wagon, and if you consider that insect would be a large portion of this, I see no problems.
Did you know that a human couple could have 10^2017 children and not two being identical. (fortunately for the couple, this is a theoretical number only, LOL)

Thanks Lucien. I agree - I was only using a figure of speech.

I am curious, however, how far "adaptation" goes, i.e. what are the limits of microevolution? Is it pure (A) or (A)+ some(C)? Is there a special creation of every "kind" of June Bug? Or are there May Bugs and July Bugs which are just variations of the Month Bug?

Were there x gazillion special creations of "animals" or just x. In humankind's case I know there were only 2 (3 if you count the incarnation).

Stu

Hi Stu

You said "even special creation of the species if that's what the Bible says"

I prefer to refer to them as the created kinds (10x in Gen.1).
Species account for the variation within the kinds.
Saying that God created the species as we see them today (not saying that you did) is feeding into the straw-man that evolutionists like to throw at us, as obviously we have seen many instances of speciation, even within our life times.

Check this picture out...

(not sure if this works... it did!)



Lucien

All -- I was posting the below as Lee's post was coming in -- so more later. In the meantime enjoy -
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20100816,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2008759,00.html


Dear Lee,

Why do you "kick against the goad?" You know that the biblical supernatural realm (BSN) exists in parallel with the natural realm (N) -- and is sovereign over it. You know that BSN continuously interacts with N -- and is even occasionally observed (miracle). You know that BSN is eternal and N is temporal. And you have rightly concluded that "information" is the (a?) transfer agent between BSN and N. That's a very worthy contribution you have made to our discussion. (So far I don't see why information isn't the mechanism between the mind of God and His N action through physical law.)

To build on Bret's thought -- why do you continue to try to reduce God and His actions in the world to a total naturalistic explanation? You'll never do it. That doesn't put some artificial limitation on your doing science. All the great Christian minds of the past did science to discover the mind of God -- and in doing so they considered it an act of worship! That's liberating, not limiting.

For some reason you seem embarrassed within your scientific community to offer the supernatural as an explanation. You want to save Christianity the "embarrassment" of making the wrong call between BSN and N. It's true that being a Christian scientist takes on some risk. But isn't that what a witness to a fool's world is all about. There's no need to yell "miracle" when you're doing F=MA equations. But similarly there's no need not to call it a miracle when it comes to creation -- even special creation of the species if that's what the Bible says. God has put His fingerprints on certain aspects of His creation and expects us to point that out as evidence for His existence. Otherwise we become co-belligerents with methodological naturalists.

Haven't we already agreed that we live in a dualistic universe -- two realms -- BSN and N co-existing moment-by-moment in parallel. One (N) remarkably orderly and discoverable through the 5 senses; the other (BSN) discoverable through the Spirit -- with occasional N fingerprints. As Christians we literally have the best of both realms as we've been given the mind of Christ! Just as he was both 100% BSN and N (how do you explain that scientifically?) so we too, being made in His image, have that kind of access to the mysteries of the universe. Praise God!

Your friend in Christ,

Stu

Wow Stu,

I have always heard that the Bible has answers for everything, but this is stretching the concept a bit too far.  Don't you think?  I think this is the case for most of my questions, especially 1) about field coupling.  Were you being serious are trying to be funny with dry wit?  I really can't tell sometimes. I gave you some questions relating to how the mind works physically and couples with the HS.  You reply with unrelated Bible verses in most cases. Very funny, har, har!

Seriously though, you have forced these  'how' questions on yourself, by hypothesizing a new force in nature: a spiritual force that allows mankind to think abstract thought but animals to not think at all but operate on instinct.  We see nearly identical types of neurons and similar brain structure in both man and mammal but you claimed there is a new force of nature hiding in there somewhere that gives mankind special ability to think whereas, animals can't as it's all instinct. I am just trying to get you to explain how this works to us. You have a physics background, so I don't believe my questions are unfair to you. I have spent a lot of hours describing my concept in detail. I am just hoping you'll reciprocate. The only thing that I understood from your reply is that you think that there are individual forces for each being that occupies a bodies 'meat computer'.  This tells me that you believe there are billions of disembodied forces occupying humans only. You also disclaim that the brain does not work on information that I have suggested but is driven by a set of spiritual forces (the person, HS in some cases, and demons in other.   Is this the correct view to derive?          

I know you want to move on to theistic evolution, but we need closure on this topic first.  Our information and the ability of our 'meat computers' to process this information along with external input is a fundamental paradigm for discussion of this topic; the role that information takes in giving humans (as well as animals) the ability to think and its role in genetics as well as embryonic development is of critical importance to how God works through Nature. As I have often stated, God controls Nature through the laws He put in place. He is not out of the loop as you contend in your statements on Theistic evolution using nature. His work is just hidden to a large degree through the effects of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle related to wave properties of fields and His independence from our time. He maintains control of energy and its distribution in state-time (information).  We can go more into the details of this in the blogs ahead.  

The reason for my excitement regarding our improved communication was based on the following two statements that you made two posts back:
1)     I think we're very close to being together on this topic!! (physical vs spiritual forces)
2)  I agree with you that, "Information is a great force in the world, it's just not a physical force as defined by science." Scientists who don't accept the information paradigm are stuck in a fantasy of their own making.... 

Then you asked me to ask my questions again and you would answer them.  I really thought we were making great progress. Then your next post was totally counter to these statements.  What happened to turn your position around?  Your reply dismissed the questions with Bible verses that don't answer any of my questions. Yet you claim they are 'readily answered by special revelation'. You'll need to explain this better to me, if I am to get anything out of your Bible quotes. BTW I'm not saying that I don't understand the Bible quotes, I'm saying I don't understand how they answer my questions.  Although, I think these Bible verses are totally supportive of my hypothesis that my dynamically changing information in my 'meat computer' is exactly this spirit that the Bible refers to.  I believe that The 'spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly realms' that the Bible references are informational forces as well. Their demonic code and knowledge  (information)  processing external information, for evil purposes no doubt, are running in 'bodies' compatible with the physical laws there.  

I also want you to know that I do agree with you that mankind will never know it all like God does. Our embodiment confines and limits us greatly. However, it is just sad for me to see you and others make claims that are untrue and have science come along and disprove them again and again.  As I have stated before, the process of thought on a natural basis will likely soon be apparent to some bright young physicist and make world headlines. Here are my views on how it works.

There is a special quantum affect that integrates all of the active neuronal firings that produces self awareness and it utilizes salt-water filled microtubules networked throughout the neurons. It doesn't have  to reach gigantic numbers of interconnection or operations to manifest the awareness affect. Spatial and temporal stimulation of the quantum coherent water molecules by the firing of neurons in the network provide the integrated reaction and thoughts.  Some very small creatures with brains and some even without brains demonstrate self-awareness by integrating sensor input in their bodies and show an integrated purposeful response to the stimulus. All cellular life contains micro-tubules.   Mammals all show self awareness and some have much smaller brains than humans. Even the simplest animals show some indication of self awareness. The mechanism must to be common to all forms of animals and possibly present in lower or other branches of life forms. Once this mechanism is discovered, things should get very interesting in the robotics and android disciplines. I admit though that I am guessing though on this concept since it is a discovery in process. 

You also need to read up on Turing Machines, you're living in one right now. The machine results from the physical laws, you are the ultra-sophisticated code running on it.
     
Trying to steer Christian belief toward billions of extra spiritual forces that operate our collective earthly bodies will only lead to more loss in credibility for the Christian faith.     

For God's sake, you need to get with His program. God created science, because he thinks it's important for us to understand how this universe works.  God set a trap for the non-believers, it's called science.  Through it He has pushed the atheistic community to the point of lunacy.  Now that we know how special the physical laws had to be to bring about multicellur life on one planet in the cosmos, the non-believers had to invent chaotic eternal inflation and an infinite number of universes to keep pace with science. You don't have to be very sane to know that there is something fundamentally flawed with a hypothesis claiming an eternal sophisticated machine producing an infinite number of universes just beyond our ability to ever discover or ever measure them and we just happen to be in the very lucky one. This concept has a lot of parallels with the billions of spiritual forces running around with being able to sense or measure the forces.     

I did enjoy you Bible quotes and thanks for searching them out. It was very imaginative.  So far you haven't provided any reason for me to reject my hypothesis or provided any material support for yours.   I looks like we press on; where is the support for your view? 

Your Loving But Tough Brother,
Lee

Lee ...

I hope you don't mind if I take a swipe at your 10^Q's ???
1) In a physical way, how does this new fifth force interact or couple with the existing forces
of nature yet can't be measured with instruments sensitive to the other forces.
Pretty much the same way that "Dark Matter" interacts with everything ... yet
it is completely undetectable by our most sensitive instruments!

2) Since the HS uses the fifth force when He indwells us, what force do people
use before we are indwelt to think and understand?
The Holy Spirit does NOT use a force ... It IS a force!
It operates in another (or a "5th") dimension ... that string-theory seems to
have plenty of room to accommodate!

3) Is there another force, 5.1, that people think with?
No! ... thinking is a normal natural function for most people!

4) If you believe that humans alone have a special spiritual force that allows them
spiritual thought, please explain how wolves stalk, communicate, and hunt prey
using natural forces. Do they use lower grade spiritual force 4.9?
The wolf uses a "natural" thought process called (natural) instinct!
Man ... is the ONLY creature of Creation that was given the ability to create and
express abstract thoughts! To (freely) choose not to kill & eat when hungry ...
because of a moral awareness that killing affects the victim more than the meal
affects the predator!

5) Another question along these same line is: What forces do demons use? 5.1 and up?
Again ... Demons do not use a force! They ARE a force that operate in another dimension!
(and ... just for the record ... the 5.1 & 5.11's went out with DOS years ago)

6) Am I on the spiritual force as you? I know we are getting closer on wavelength but not quite there yet.
Lee ... I honestly pray to God that the answer to this question is YES!

7) If all beings are using the same force, how are these beings isolated into distinct personalities:
frequency, phase, code multiplexing, or something else?
Yes! ... there is only ONE Holy Spirit ... that guides ALL Christians to the same goal!
But ... each person is a unique Soul ... with a unique personality ... that can best
serve God in a way that fits with their own unique capabilities!
Non-Christians ... are either spiritually empty (but unique)... or they are controlled
by Demonic spirits (which are each unique)... but have a common goal of keeping that
person from ever knowing God ... and finding eternal salvation!

If a person has multiple personalities, do you think that there are multiple spiritual
forces constituting each personality that the person assumes like 5.11 thru 5.13?
YES!

9) Do you think there were thousands of individual spiritual forces in Legion or
just one spiritual force that all the demons occupied collectively in Legion that
Jesus moved into the pigs nearby?
There are countless millions of individual Demonic spiritual forces!

10) Why do you not want the GAP to be closed by scientific discovery; why do you
want to perpetuate mystical forces as the reason when a natural explanation is at hand?
I have absolutely NO problem (at all) with Science seeking to discover how God works!
But ... just as a car can NEVER understand its designer ... or how a building will
NEVER be able to explain what motivated its architect ... a Man (no matter how pretentious)
will NEVER understand that which is beyond ANY human comprehension !!!
Besides ... Science is NOT trying to explain God!
Science is trying to explain God away !!!
Can't you see that ???


Bret* 2010

Lee -- I'm delighted your prayers are being answered in that we are communicating better. But I think it's a little too soon for you to declare it a miracle and think somehow I have come any closer to your naturalistic thinking. In fact my prayer has been just the opposite -- that you convert to my super-naturalistic thinking.

Yes, God makes natural laws to be discovered through our 5 senses and the scientific process. It's a wondrous enterprise to be part of and I'm delighted that you have been able to devote most of your life to it. But even more exciting is that the spiritual world God created is pre-minent. And it too is discernable to us, but through the spirit. And that He has chosen us to belong to it.

As you know I'm a big proponent of the ID Movement. There's never been any argument from me that "information" (intelligence) is the missing element in today's scientific discussions. So that's a straw man. Let's get to the real issue -- THEISTIC EVOLUTION.

You want science to explain all the gaps. That will never happen. Even you know this (e.g. the GAP between the thought of God foreknowing creation, and His physical act of doing it). But before we go there (question 10), let's dispense with your first nine questions since most all of them are readily answered by the Special Revelation of God.

1) In a physical way, how does this new fifth force interact or couple with the existing forces of nature yet can't be measured with instruments sensitive to the other forces.
John 3:6 - Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit

2) since the HS uses the fifth force when He indwells us, what force do people use before we are indwelt to think and understand?
John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

3) Is there another force, 5.1, that people think with?
No - you're born with the power to think, but you're not connected to think spiritually with God until you're born again.
2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

4) If you believe that humans alone have a special spiritual force that allows them spiritual thought, please explain how wolves stalk, communicate, and hunt prey using natural forces. Do they use lower grade spiritual force 4.9?
Instinct. 1 Cor 15:39 - All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.

5) Another question along these same line is: What forces do demons use? 5.1 and up?
Eph 6:12 - For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

6) Am I on the spiritual force as you? I know we are getting closer on wavelength but not quite there yet.
Evidently not.

7) If all beings are using the same force, how are these beings isolated into distinct personalities: frequency, phase, code multiplexing, or something else?1 Cor 12:4-7 - There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

if a person has multiple personalities, do you think that there are multiple spiritual forces constituting each personality that the person assumes like 5.11 thru 5.13?
I have no idea

9) Do you think there were thousands of individual spiritual forces in Legion or just one spiritual force that all the demons occupied collectively in Legion that Jesus moved into the pigs nearby?
It appears that there were many - Luke 8:31 - "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him.
v33: When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

10) Why do you not want the GAP to be closed by scientific discovery; why do you want to perpetuate mystical forces as the reason when a natural explanation is at hand?
That's an ill advised assumption on your part. I want science to legitimately discover all it can about the natural world. But I don't want it imposing its naturalistic methodology on something supernatural and thinking it is justified in doing so. And let's keep to the word "spiritual" and not equate it with the word "mystical". "Spiritual" are those supernatural subjects dealt with in the Bible. We're not talking about magic.

I don't buy theistic evolution. Not because I'm don't want science to explain the GAP nor because I am afraid it will disaffirm the Bible. Theistic evolution just doesn't deliver the goods (proof, evidence). And the Bible doesn't testify to it. So why in the world should I believe it?

Sadly I see you putting more faith in the hopes of science to explain something the plain teaching of Scripture rejects.

... to be continued I'm sure

Hallelujah!  My prayer worked, we are starting to communicate (exchange information and understand it).  Praise God!  What a miracle!

It seems we are getting closer on the real process as to how the spiritual nature of man works based on your reply.  Maybe by answering the  questions below we can see how close our alignment is. Of course these questions would disappear if you agree that the spiritual force is organized energy or matter (information).  

Here are my questions again, I would enjoy hearing your speculation related to the answers:

1) In a physical way, how does this new fifth force interact or couple with the existing forces of nature yet can't be measured with instruments sensitive to the other forces. 
2)   since the HS uses the fifth force when He indwells us, what force do people use before we are indwelt to think and understand? 
3) Is there another force, 5.1, that people think with? 
4) If you believe that humans alone have a special spiritual force that allows them spiritual thought, please explain how wolves stalk, communicate, and hunt prey using natural forces.  Do they use lower grade spiritual force 4.9?
5) Another question along these same line is: What forces do demons use? 5.1 and up?  
6) Am I on the same spiritual force as you? I know we are getting closer on wavelength but not quite there yet. 
7) If all beings are using the same force, how are these beings isolated into distinct personalities: frequency, phase, code multiplexing, or something else?
if a person has multiple personalities, do you think that there are multiple spiritual forces constituting each personality that the person assumes like 5.11 thru 5.13? 
9) Do you think there were thousands of individual spiritual forces in Legion or just one spiritual force that all the demons occupied collectively in Legion that Jesus moved into the pigs nearby?

Last but not least:
10)  Why do you not want the GAP to be closed by scientific discovery; why do you want to perpetuate mystical forces as the reason when a natural explanation is at hand?

 
Please take a stab at any or all of them. I hope it will be all as this will likely be entertaining to our readers and initiate much dialogue.  

Lee 

First of all ... I would just like to say that I'm glad to see that Dave
hasn't given up interest into these types of topics! (Hi Dave!)

Second ... I think that Martin is spot-on with his analysis of this study!

But ... let me add just a shtikel more cynicism to the discussion!
I find it extremely difficult to believe that just because someone had
plenty of fresh grow crops to each (for just ONE year)... that his (or her)
grandchildren would ALL die 32-years earlier than if that same person would
have almost starved to death instead ???
Am I the only one who thinks that something else may have been overlooked
(or ignored) in this (so-called) Scientific study of people that lived 200-years ago?
How much (REAL) detailed data do we actually have about these people ...
other than when they were born, when they died, and what years were good & bad
for growing crops?
How do we know that everyone was guilty of gluttony during good crop years?
If these people were pigging-out on Big-Macs, Fries, & Milkshakes 5-times a day
for an entire year ... then I might be (just a little bit) more likely to buy
into this flawed premise! But they were just getting their fill of Health Food !!!
Are we to believe that malnutrition is a good thing?
How much information could we possibly have about each persons cause of death
in such a remote area from so long ago without detailed (modern-day) autopsies?

I (obviously) don't believe that it is the clear? & overwhelming? data that is
driving this renewed interest into studying this topic!
May I suggest that this is motivated by a (much needed) convenient excuse for the
next 20 to 50 years for the defenders of Darwinian Evolution ... so they can say that
they are "on the verge" of major breakthroughs that will finally explain how Evolution works!
Not to mention ... the HUGE cash-cow that this can become ... to keep these guys
employed until some other NEW mysterious hunch needs to be investigated !!!

I offer the following excerpt from the "TIME" article as evidence:

*** That's why Ecker calls the $190 million grant from NIH "peanuts" compared with the
probable end cost of figuring out what all the epigenetic marks are and how they work
in concert.
Remember the Human Genome Project? Completed in March 2000, the project found that the
human genome contains something like 25,000 genes; it took $3 billion to map them all.
The human epigenome contains an as yet unknowable number of patterns of epigenetic
marks, a number so big that Ecker won't even speculate on it. The number is certainly
in the millions. A full epigenome map will require major advances in computing power.
When completed, the Human Epigenome Project (already under way in Europe) will make
the Human Genome Project look like homework that 15th century kids did with an abacus. ***

MONEY! MONEY! MONEY !!!


Bret* 2010