All,
It seems we're playing a new form of football now instead of debating. This is better than my fellow debaters sighting red herrings for distraction though, so I'll play with you for a round or so. The new rules seem to include for the moment making the statement 'Did God really say?' followed by an egregious mis-statement fantasized by Stu. Just to misguide our reader and sling mud my way, He quotes atheist Darwinist views that have no bearing in our debate. Unfortunately, he can't separate out the various versions of evolution like theistic evolution or evolutionary creationism with Christians, against the ever popular secular atheistic Darwinism and lumps them all together in his statements. He should be ashamed for his misrepresentation of the views of evolutionary creation but still shows no remorse. Not very Christian, if this is intended. I believe it is! The word incorrigible comes to mind. How confused he is even after I have clarified the positions several times for him.
He even claims that St Augustine didn't take a scientific position or believe in evolution. This was because the words science and evolution didn't exist in Augustine's generation. Stu also didn't explain that Augustine was very confused about the time line presented in the Bible and writes extensively about it. His writings confess a large degree of confusion about creation and about how God accomplished it. This was a very reasonable position for him to take as an early traditionalist without having any scientific knowledge or archeological data. Since he was a scholar and interested in logical analysis of the facts related to creation, I am sure he would express an entirely different opinion if he were alive today.
It now seems that everyone is waiting for me to take my turn so here are my statements about the traditionalist views that are being made by my fellow debaters. This looks like fun and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did in writing it!
1) The traditionalist said to everyone, “Did God really say '
Ge 1:11 And God saith, `Let the earth yield tender grass, herb sowing seed, fruit-tree (whose seed [is] in itself) making fruit after its kind, on the earth:' and it is so. 12And the earth bringeth forth tender grass, herb sowing seed after its kind, and tree making fruit (whose seed [is] in itself) after its kind; 'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that He instantaneously created each kind ex nihilo instead of the earth and its natural processes bringing them into existence as it states. In spite of scientific evidence to the contrary, each plant species must stay exactly like its kind. You need to accept our assumption here that there is no variation allowed in the kinds, even though the Bible does not state this in the verse.
2) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Ge 1:24And God saith, `Let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind, cattle and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after its kind:' and it is so. 25And God maketh the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, and God seeth that [it is] good.'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that He instantaneously created each kind ex nihilo by speaking the kinds into existence instead of the earth and its natural processes bringing them into existence as it states. In spite of scientific evidence to the contrary, again trust us that each animal species must stay exactly like its kind. Even though the words in the Bible don't indicate that the descendents like cattle of each kind such as mammals don't have to be exactly the same as their parents just ignore what it states and believe us.
3) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
1 Cor 15:38-39 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that He instantaneously created each kind ex nihilo fully formed and mature by speaking each kind into existence. Just ignore the use of the word seed in this verse. He certainly did not grow each kind from its parent's seed generation by generation. Surely God did not control this process of conception, modification, and growth of the gametes inside of the parent to a mature seed according to His will and then have the seed grow into the mature plant, animal, or human naturally.
4) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Jb 40:15 ASV 15 Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox.'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that He made humans differently than other animals. God 'specially' created humans from the dust by instantaneously using a different process than He made everything else.
5) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Luke 1:35And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that He doesn't make special creations in the womb of the mother. Surely this cannot be controlled by God because we believe the scientists and their statement that the process of genetic code modification is based on random chance instead of being pre-determined by God. Surely the animals cannot be made this way either, even though Jesus was made this way and is a special creation of God Himself.
6) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Is 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; 'I am' God, and there is none like me; 10declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not 'yet' done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure; and
Je 1:5 'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee. and
Ps 139:13 NET Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother’s womb. ESV For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. and
Ge 2:7 YLT And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.and
Ge 25:23 ASV And Jehovah said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people. And the elder shall serve the younger.'The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean this because we know that genetic mutations are random and cannot occur in each parent's womb according to God's plan. This is why we fight evolution so tenaciously, it's because Darwinists claim this process is random and relies on natural selection and we believe them instead of God! We can't accept evolutionary creation either because evolution is part of the name and unfortunately for those Christians they are guilty by association even though it could be the process God uses to create with. We just don't want any association with the Darwinists, so we can't accept any process that involves evolution. Just ignore the verses in the Bible where is states God modifies the seed or knits or formed beings together in their parents womb generation to generation or where He made Jesus (a very special creation) in Mary's womb without a human father. 'formeth the man - dust of the ground,' must mean instantaneous popping into existence. This evolutionary creation alluded to here can't be the way He created the kinds because that would give limited credibility to the Darwinists.
7) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: 30but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. '
The Traditionalist says surely He cannot allow a life and death process to be based on nature as the Darwinists claim with their natural selection claim. Ignore the fact that God states in the Bible He uses divine selection and nature to cull the herd, wither the vine, grow nations of people of an individual parent, etc. We reject all natural means of growing and developing new kinds or individual beings generation to generation and insist on new physical laws which He uses to pop people and animals into existence.
8 ) The traditionalist said to everyone, did God really say '
Ge 1:21 YLT And God prepareth the great monsters, and every living creature that is creeping, which the waters have teemed with, after their kind, and every fowl with wing, after its kind, and God seeth that [it is] good.and then a few verses later,
Ge 1:27And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.The Traditionalist says surely He does not mean to use the same term 'prepareth' for both man and beast. We surely believe that man is a special creation and this means that God must have created man by a special process as well and we think it must be popping man into existence fully formed and instantly knowledgeable. Nevermind the problems with free will and accountability for bad decisions like the original sin. Nevermind, all of the Biblical references to forming man in his mother's womb and all of the references to 'seed' that to pertain to plant, animal and mankind. Mankind did not come from a seed, God popped Adam into existence instantaneously directly from dust based on our interpretation of Ge 2:7, no other verses should be considered in the Bible.
9) The traditionalist said to everyone, did Peter really say '
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.2 Peter 3:7-9 or
'
Your father’s blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, than the bounty of the age-old hills. Ge 49:25The Traditionalist says surely he did not mean deep time or an age during the creation week as it would allow evolution to occur. This would permit a natural process that would be capable of creating all of the organisms that ever existed on earth including mankind. God couldn't have created life this way. Ignore all of those verses that suggest evolutionary creation is exactly the way that He did create all life generation after generation from the beginning.
Talk about creative interpretation of the Bible verses, the Traditionalist takes this to an unbelieveable extreme in their creation myth view and ignores many other verses on how God states he creates .Your turn!
Lee